4 ms·

Say what you will about the Grumman LLV, but every one of them you see on the road today is at least 30 years old, and some could be pushing 40. (The similar-lo

Say what you will about the Grumman LLV, but every one of them you see on the road today is at least 30 years old, and some could be pushing 40. (The similar-looking Ford-Utilimaster FFV is ~25 this year.) As uncomfortable as it must be to sit in one for hours on end (I never had the privilege myself) you've got to respect their longevity. Here's hoping these new trucks make it to the 2050s and beyond.

hex4def6 2y ago
"While the all-aluminum body of the LLV has resisted corrosion exceptionally well over the years, the main powertrain components have been replaced multiple times and now must be sourced through aftermarket manufacturing. This has significantly increased repair costs while reducing performance and reliability. In fact, the Postal Service had to contract an alternative supplier to reverse engineer and manufacture the chassis frame to keep the LLV operational. As a result, the average annual maintenance cost exceeds $5,000, with 7% of LLVs exceeding $10,000 annually. Additionally, they are less fuel-efficient and unsuitable for future delivery needs given projected changes in market demand, mail mix, and increasing delivery points. The LLVs also lack modern safety features such as airbags, anti-lock brakes, air conditioning, back-up cameras, blind-spot warning systems, daytime running lights, and seatbelt reminders." https://uspsngdveis.com/documents/USPS+NGDV+FEIS_Dec+2021.pdf https://uspsngdveis.com/documents/USPS+NGDV+FEIS_Dec+2021.pd... Sort of a Ship of Theseus vehicle. Yes, some have lasted over 40 years, but that's with potentially multiple drivetrain replacements, at an annual maintenance cost of $5,000 - $10,000. That feels high, given how simple those vehicles are.
- varikin 2y ago
  I believe the LLV line was only suppose to be in service for 20 years, but the government gonna government and not find a replacement till it's almost too late. So yes it was a lot of scrounging and probably a lot of USPS mechanics needing to be creative, but the LLV lasted twice as long as it was designed for. I expect this same conversation will happen again in another 40 years.
  - not_kurt_godel 2y ago
    > the government gonna government and not find a replacement till it's almost too late Actually they were going to convert to EVs back in 2006 when Bush stepped in to prevent that and punish them on behalf of his oil buddies with the Postal Accountability and Enhancement Act. The problem isn't government, it's politicians voted in to destroy it in favor of corporate interests.
    - throwworhtthrow 2y ago
      According to Wikipedia: > Passed the House on December 8, 2006 (voice vote) > Passed the Senate on December 9, 2006 (unanimous consent) Can't pin it all on Bush Jr.
      - not_kurt_godel 2y ago
        > According to Tom Davis, the Bush administration threatened to veto the legislation unless they added the provision regarding funding the employee benefits in advance with the objective of using that money to reduce the federal deficit. Bush was responsible for the provision that kneecapped USPS to prevent them from ever funding their EV ambitions (until Biden funded NGDV in 2022)
    - varikin 2y ago
      I wasn't aware Bush was not part of the government in 2006. Thank you for the correction.
      - not_kurt_godel 2y ago
        Any snarkiness aside, the point is that "the government" isn't a monolithic entity that operates inevitably or deterministically. There can be significantly different outcomes depending on who is elected to run it (and you might even have an outsized say in who that is, depending on the state you live in and whether you vote).
- AdamJacobMuller 2y ago
  > manufacture the chassis frame Ship of Theseus notwithstanding, at that point, isn't it a new car if you're replacing the chassis?
  - folmar 2y ago
    Some manufacturers have a way of "officially" replacing the chassis, as in getting the chassis as a replacement part and procedure to replace it. For example see BMW part number 51 71 7 409 410, chassis for F16 https://www.online-teile.com/bmw-ersatzteile/51717409410_Body-Skeleton.html?language=en&model=1 https://www.online-teile.com/bmw-ersatzteile/51717409410_Bod... The law might look this or other way depending on where you are.
whalesalad 2y ago
From my desk at home I see the lil LLV come down our private road every single day. With retrofitted LED lighting.
- reaperducer 2y ago
  From my desk at home I see the lil LLV come down our private road every single day. They seem very durable. I've forgotten the number of times I've seen one plowing an improvised short cut through the scrub brush between desert ranches. Probably cuts an hour off the time with little change in comfort compared to using what passes for "roads" in some places.
  - potato3732842 2y ago
    Here they slide down the hills in the snow and ice and hit things (at low-ish speeds). One got stuck in a snow bank at a cross street near me a few winters ago and another one showed up and they played bumper cars until it was though though I'm sure that activity is not officially sanctioned. I can't imagine how that would have gone with the Metris vans they're using as a stop gap
deciduously 2y ago
Constantly starting and stopping, too, in a variety of temperatures.
m463 2y ago
I'm pretty sure the enemy of vehicle longevity isn't design, but parts supply. The crown victoria could have kept on supplying police departments for another decade or two if ford didn't discontinue it.
mmooss 2y ago
> every one of them you see on the road today is at least 30 years old, and some could be pushing 40. Survivor bias: The ones you see are the ones that have survived. You don't see the junkyards full of failed trucks.
- mulmen 2y ago
  Ok but how many other 40 year old vehicles do you see?

hex4def6 2y ago

"While the all-aluminum body of the LLV has resisted corrosion exceptionally well over the years, the main powertrain components have been replaced multiple times and now must be sourced through aftermarket manufacturing. This has significantly increased repair costs while reducing performance and reliability. In fact, the Postal Service had to contract an alternative supplier to reverse engineer and manufacture the chassis frame to keep the LLV operational. As a result, the average annual maintenance cost exceeds $5,000, with 7% of LLVs exceeding $10,000 annually. Additionally, they are less fuel-efficient and unsuitable for future delivery needs given projected changes in market demand, mail mix, and increasing delivery points. The LLVs also lack modern safety features such as airbags, anti-lock brakes, air conditioning, back-up cameras, blind-spot warning systems, daytime running lights, and seatbelt reminders." https://uspsngdveis.com/documents/USPS+NGDV+FEIS_Dec+2021.pdf https://uspsngdveis.com/documents/USPS+NGDV+FEIS_Dec+2021.pd... Sort of a Ship of Theseus vehicle. Yes, some have lasted over 40 years, but that's with potentially multiple drivetrain replacements, at an annual maintenance cost of $5,000 - $10,000. That feels high, given how simple those vehicles are.

varikin 2y ago
I believe the LLV line was only suppose to be in service for 20 years, but the government gonna government and not find a replacement till it's almost too late. So yes it was a lot of scrounging and probably a lot of USPS mechanics needing to be creative, but the LLV lasted twice as long as it was designed for. I expect this same conversation will happen again in another 40 years.
- not_kurt_godel 2y ago
  > the government gonna government and not find a replacement till it's almost too late Actually they were going to convert to EVs back in 2006 when Bush stepped in to prevent that and punish them on behalf of his oil buddies with the Postal Accountability and Enhancement Act. The problem isn't government, it's politicians voted in to destroy it in favor of corporate interests.
  - throwworhtthrow 2y ago
    According to Wikipedia: > Passed the House on December 8, 2006 (voice vote) > Passed the Senate on December 9, 2006 (unanimous consent) Can't pin it all on Bush Jr.
    - not_kurt_godel 2y ago
      > According to Tom Davis, the Bush administration threatened to veto the legislation unless they added the provision regarding funding the employee benefits in advance with the objective of using that money to reduce the federal deficit. Bush was responsible for the provision that kneecapped USPS to prevent them from ever funding their EV ambitions (until Biden funded NGDV in 2022)
  - varikin 2y ago
    I wasn't aware Bush was not part of the government in 2006. Thank you for the correction.
    - not_kurt_godel 2y ago
      Any snarkiness aside, the point is that "the government" isn't a monolithic entity that operates inevitably or deterministically. There can be significantly different outcomes depending on who is elected to run it (and you might even have an outsized say in who that is, depending on the state you live in and whether you vote).
AdamJacobMuller 2y ago
> manufacture the chassis frame Ship of Theseus notwithstanding, at that point, isn't it a new car if you're replacing the chassis?
- folmar 2y ago
  Some manufacturers have a way of "officially" replacing the chassis, as in getting the chassis as a replacement part and procedure to replace it. For example see BMW part number 51 71 7 409 410, chassis for F16 https://www.online-teile.com/bmw-ersatzteile/51717409410_Body-Skeleton.html?language=en&model=1 https://www.online-teile.com/bmw-ersatzteile/51717409410_Bod... The law might look this or other way depending on where you are.

whalesalad 2y ago

From my desk at home I see the lil LLV come down our private road every single day. With retrofitted LED lighting.

reaperducer 2y ago
From my desk at home I see the lil LLV come down our private road every single day. They seem very durable. I've forgotten the number of times I've seen one plowing an improvised short cut through the scrub brush between desert ranches. Probably cuts an hour off the time with little change in comfort compared to using what passes for "roads" in some places.
- potato3732842 2y ago
  Here they slide down the hills in the snow and ice and hit things (at low-ish speeds). One got stuck in a snow bank at a cross street near me a few winters ago and another one showed up and they played bumper cars until it was though though I'm sure that activity is not officially sanctioned. I can't imagine how that would have gone with the Metris vans they're using as a stop gap

deciduously 2y ago

Constantly starting and stopping, too, in a variety of temperatures.

m463 2y ago

I'm pretty sure the enemy of vehicle longevity isn't design, but parts supply. The crown victoria could have kept on supplying police departments for another decade or two if ford didn't discontinue it.

mmooss 2y ago

> every one of them you see on the road today is at least 30 years old, and some could be pushing 40. Survivor bias: The ones you see are the ones that have survived. You don't see the junkyards full of failed trucks.

mulmen 2y ago
Ok but how many other 40 year old vehicles do you see?