10 ms·

Yes, it ‘looks like a duck,’ but carriers like the new USPS mail truck

126 points by vincentchau 2y ago

fencepost 2y ago
How could they not love them in comparison to the 30+ year old vehicles they've been driving?
- rectang 2y ago
  Cultural hostility among a subpopulation to electric vehicles as "woke"? Ordinary sentimentality and the natural human discomfort with change?
  - fencepost 2y ago
    I have great faith in the ability of ahem some individuals to harm themselves out of spite or inability to recognize inbound leopards, but I'm pretty sure that even those would find the new vehicles to be an improvement even if they're EVs - at least if they're actually driving the old and new vehicles.
    - evan_ 2y ago
      plenty of folks will soil themselves if it means the people they dislike will have to smell it
- potato3732842 2y ago
  Frequently "improvements" come at the expense of compromising some key feature for lots of users. This is particularly true in tall organizations where the people doing procurement are far from the users.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
deleted 2y ago
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smitelli 2y ago
Say what you will about the Grumman LLV, but every one of them you see on the road today is at least 30 years old, and some could be pushing 40. (The similar-looking Ford-Utilimaster FFV is ~25 this year.) As uncomfortable as it must be to sit in one for hours on end (I never had the privilege myself) you've got to respect their longevity. Here's hoping these new trucks make it to the 2050s and beyond.
- hex4def6 2y ago
  "While the all-aluminum body of the LLV has resisted corrosion exceptionally well over the years, the main powertrain components have been replaced multiple times and now must be sourced through aftermarket manufacturing. This has significantly increased repair costs while reducing performance and reliability. In fact, the Postal Service had to contract an alternative supplier to reverse engineer and manufacture the chassis frame to keep the LLV operational. As a result, the average annual maintenance cost exceeds $5,000, with 7% of LLVs exceeding $10,000 annually. Additionally, they are less fuel-efficient and unsuitable for future delivery needs given projected changes in market demand, mail mix, and increasing delivery points. The LLVs also lack modern safety features such as airbags, anti-lock brakes, air conditioning, back-up cameras, blind-spot warning systems, daytime running lights, and seatbelt reminders." https://uspsngdveis.com/documents/USPS+NGDV+FEIS_Dec+2021.pdf https://uspsngdveis.com/documents/USPS+NGDV+FEIS_Dec+2021.pd... Sort of a Ship of Theseus vehicle. Yes, some have lasted over 40 years, but that's with potentially multiple drivetrain replacements, at an annual maintenance cost of $5,000 - $10,000. That feels high, given how simple those vehicles are.
  - varikin 2y ago
    I believe the LLV line was only suppose to be in service for 20 years, but the government gonna government and not find a replacement till it's almost too late. So yes it was a lot of scrounging and probably a lot of USPS mechanics needing to be creative, but the LLV lasted twice as long as it was designed for. I expect this same conversation will happen again in another 40 years.
    - 2y ago
jacobsenscott 2y ago
[flagged]
kaveet 2y ago
http://archive.today/Mcwu5 http://archive.today/Mcwu5
postoplust 2y ago
The seat height in the banner image looks too tall for the mailboxes. I wonder how the seat height in the NGDV compares to the Grumman LLV.
- reaperducer 2y ago
  The seat height in the banner image looks too tall for the mailboxes. The very first image in the article shows a driver putting mail in a mailbox. What more proof do you need? https://static01.nyt.com/images/2024/11/20/multimedia/00xp-mailtrucks-03-mkpt/00xp-mailtrucks-03-mkpt-superJumbo.jpg https://static01.nyt.com/images/2024/11/20/multimedia/00xp-m...
  - toast0 2y ago
    It looks like the letter carrier has to reach down to get to that mailbox. Yes, they can reach it, but I wonder about ergonomics. Not all mailboxes are the same height, so you probably have to reach down for some, but if this is a representative mailbox, I worry.
garciansmith 2y ago
I've read so much knocking their appearance, which is so confusing to me. It's ultimately function over form in this case; who cares if you don't like how it looks? I can only dream that the visibility and safety of having features like such a low hood and large bumpers would be incorporated into other vehicles (i.e., every SUV ever).
- tantalor 2y ago
  > It's ultimately form over function in this case Doesn't "form over function" mean the opposite of your usage? Form = appearance Function = usefulness
  - garciansmith 2y ago
    Yes, I just reversed it by mistake!
  - PittleyDunkin 2y ago
    I took this to mean that critiquing appearance is itself form over function.
    - tantalor 2y ago
      Oh. What does that even mean? Saying something is "form over function" is not derogatory. Lots of great inventions prioritize form over function (iPod comes to mind).
      - phil21 2y ago
        iPod was famously both though? The click-wheel was pretty unique and worked great to make an accessible UIx for the masses. It may have been somewhat limiting in edge cases, but for normal usage I don't recall anyone complaining about it outside of hardcore tech circles.
        tantalor 2y ago
pearlsontheroad 2y ago
I'm proud to have helped implement the brand new dedicated ERP system that is used to build these trucks. Nice to see the final product is hitting the streets.
- bnc319 2y ago
  Can you provide some more information as to what the ERP system is built on? (i.e. open source software, "from scratch", etc?)
  - pearlsontheroad 2y ago
    Latest Oracle JDE E1
- mmooss 2y ago
  I think you owe us some information to satisfy 'intellectual curiosity'! :) I'll start: Why did they create a brand-new and why a dedicated ERP system? Didn't the manufacturer have an ERP system used for manufacturing other vehicles?
xnx 2y ago
I don't mind the appearance if it serves a function, but what's the function? An electric truck wouldn't need a traditional engine compartment.
- capital_guy 2y ago
  A crumple zone?
- dylan604 2y ago
  i guess they could have made it flat nosed like a bus?? are they putting the batteries in the nose? it looks like the cargo part is too low for them to be placed under there. also, gotta put that ac somewhere. probably makes it easier to work on under the little hood than having to climb on top of the truck.
- varikin 2y ago
  According to Wikipedia[1]: > Four variants of the NGDV are expected to be in fleet use: both gasoline-powered and battery-electric, in either front wheel drive or all wheel drive. So I expect the front hood is for the gas powered engine for those variants. Further down, it talks about only 10% will be EV at the start due to cost. Also, this is in partnership with Ford so the ICE power train is the from the Ford Transit van. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oshkosh_NGDV https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oshkosh_NGDV
- fencepost 2y ago
  They aren't/weren't all going to be EVs. Originally the USPS was looking at 10% EVs and 90% internal combustion but there were a bunch of challenges to that (including that ratio being based on incorrect environmental impact data). Now it's 75% EVs in the first order of 60,000 and future orders may be that high or higher (currently expected that it will be all EVs starting in 2026). sources: article and wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oshkosh_NGDV https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oshkosh_NGDV)
- agent281 2y ago
  One benefit of a low hood is that it scoops up pedestrians that might get hit instead of hitting their torsos with the vehicle. It'll probably break your legs, but you are more likely to survive. This is one of the reasons that SUVs and large trucks are deadly: it's basically hitting you directly in the chest cavity.
schiffern 2y ago
Yes, It ‘Looks Like a Duck,’ but... ...but that means it's far safer for pedestrians than the currently-in-vogue "bulldozer" vehicle front ends. I for one welcome our new duck-shaped overlords.
- matsemann 2y ago
  Direct Vision Standards[0] should implemented as a mandatory requirement everywhere for large vehicles traveling in cities or residential areas where there's "soft road users"[1] (pedestrians, cyclists). Should be able to see straight to the side and know you're not running someone over. [0]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_Vision_Standard https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_Vision_Standard [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-motorist https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-motorist
  - morsch 2y ago
    I was squeezing by in front of a modern garbage truck this morning that basically had a glass side door. It was great: I could actually establish eye contact with the driver and sign that I was going to drive in front of him and he could give me small wave to go ahead. The driver of a less modern truck would have had no way at all to see me, much less communicate with me.
whalesalad 2y ago
Interesting that the front windshield only has about 50-60% usable space. On the top this makes sense, as the black coating acts as a sun shade. On the bottom... there goes all the visibility gained by having the low hood. wtf? The upfitter AUX switches appear to be Ford, same for the AC controls.
- ceejayoz 2y ago
  The final photo in the article appears to show pretty good forward visiblity. Seems fine?
- jacobgkau 2y ago
  > On the bottom... there goes all the visibility gained by having the low hood. wtf? That is a little weird, now that I look at it again. But the way you'd use the rest of that bottom space would be by lowering the driver, basically, and that would mean the driver's not as high up over the hood. So maybe getting the higher angle gains more visibility than having them sit lower just to maximize usable windshield area? (The only way you could have both is if the dashboard was transparent.)
- cooljoseph 2y ago
  The camera is positioned so that the side window is visible through the front windshield. I think the "black coating" you are seeing is just the interior of the van, and that the entire front windshield is usable.
- starkparker 2y ago
  > The upfitter AUX switches appear to be Ford, same for the AC controls. Ford supplies the ICE engine, transmission, suspension, steering wheel, and instrument cluster, so that tracks. https://fordauthority.com/2024/10/new-usps-mail-carrier-uses-ford-steering-wheel-cluster/ https://fordauthority.com/2024/10/new-usps-mail-carrier-uses...
- justsomehnguy 2y ago
  My $5 it's the usual 'too late to change'. Compare with the 2021 version. Also the if you trace LoS in the cabin pic in the article you would find what the driver wouldn't see more of the hood because he need to be sat quite a lot higher (up to 20cm I think) to gain the view you are thinking of. And this is incompatible with 'do the mailman thing without getting out of chair'. https://www.nalc.org/news/the-postal-record/2021/may-2021/document/Vehicles.pdf https://www.nalc.org/news/the-postal-record/2021/may-2021/do...
hoherd 2y ago
This is great news! The design is interesting though. Why would they choose such a hard angle for the hood and windshield vs something more gentle? Does anybody know why they made that design choice?
- NotSammyHagar 2y ago
  read other comments, so talk people can stand up in the back and short people and see over the hood.
fatboy 2y ago
After driving a new Mercedes Vito (I can't describe how insane the controls of this vehicle are, but it has capacitive-touch buttons that you have to swipe to change the stereo volume ON THE STEERING WHEEL), I long for controls that look like this: https://static01.nyt.com/images/2024/11/20/multimedia/00xp-mailtrucks-08-mkpt/00xp-mailtrucks-08-mkpt-mobileMasterAt3x.jpg?quality=75&auto=webp&disable=upscale&width=1800 https://static01.nyt.com/images/2024/11/20/multimedia/00xp-m...
- unethical_ban 2y ago
  Tactile controls should be the default. I was actually interested in the Lincoln Corsair until I saw how much they rely on touch - even for things like the climate control, same as the Teslas. Instantly took it off the list.
  - silisili 2y ago
    That's why I won't even consider a Tesla. Test drove a few vehicles and it's amazing how many do touch screen everything now. Will -not- buy. The one I ended up buying is all tactile except changing the radio stations. Even that gets really annoying, as you have to take your eyes off the road to change stations. I end up just poking it in random places blind until something happens.
stanski 2y ago
Reminds me of the Pilatus PC-6. Another ugly duckling (in some people's eyes) that's a workhorse.
AcerbicZero 2y ago
lol they're paying (with my money) something like 60k for each one of those. Should have just bought police explorers like the cops are driving and saved 15-20k+ per unit. Plus as a bonus you might have actual parts availability for the foreseeable future, unlike when Oshkosh corp decides burning money in a barrel is more financially viable than building replacement parts for the postal service and the 40-70k of these that they'll actually get ordered before the budget gets slashed or whatever.
imp0cat 2y ago
Needs just one thing - light blue paintjob with an orange beak and a tiny purple hat. ;)
- evan_ 2y ago
  I was just thinking they need a special green and yellow variant for the southern Willamette Valley... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Oregon_Duck https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Oregon_Duck
ggreer 2y ago
I wondered why other delivery companies use commercial vehicles instead of NGDVs or LLVs, and the answer is that commercial vehicles are more capable while being significantly cheaper. NGDVs cost $60,000 each, and that's for half of them being ICE vehicles and half EVs with a 70 mile range (35 miles if you use the heater). The ICE version gets 14.7 miles per gallon (8.6mpg if you turn on the air conditioning).[1] There is no hybrid version, which is outrageous considering the expected driving profile. For comparison, a Mercedes eSprinter (which has more cargo capacity and >2x the range of the NGDV) starts at $63,475 MSRP. I'm sure a bulk order of 50,000 would get a significant discount. This whole project seems to be a handout to a defense contractor, not an efficient use of funds. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oshkosh_NGDV#Fuel_economy_and_range https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oshkosh_NGDV#Fuel_economy_and_...
- mschuster91 2y ago
  > I wondered why other delivery companies use commercial vehicles instead of NGDVs or LLVs, and the answer is that commercial vehicles are more capable while being significantly cheaper. Commercial vehicles in fleets are leased - they last anywhere from 2-5 years then they're pushed off to the used vehicle market. After 10-15 years they're so done that they'll end up on the scrap yard or shipped off to Africa or Asia. On top of that they're designed to be aerodynamic at highway speeds because they'll spend a lot of their life time on such streets and speeds, whereas these postal trucks will spend most of their time moving like snails. These USPS tanks in contrast are expected to last 30, 40 years like their predecessors, racking up insane mileage... and while no one cares if some underpaid gig worker runs over some child because the child happened to be in the dead spot of his vehicle, if the same happens to USPS the government itself is the target for a nice juicy lawsuit. So it makes sense for a custom order at that scale and expected life time, and it also makes sense to stray from what the market has to offer because the requirements are different. Oh, and commercial delivery doesn't have to take care about its workers. They'll get burned out with their backs and joints ruined, but the companies don't have to pay a dime. In contrast, USPS is a government agency and has a massive financial incentive to keep healthcare costs low.
- greenthrow 2y ago
  As usual when you take a dismissive stance ("this is obviously a waste of money!") you are ignoring lots od details. The use case of a mail carrier is not well suited by a massive eSprinter. They have no need for something so large. They want to be seated at the height where most mailboxes are so they can make many deliveries without getting out of the car. Whenever you find yourself going "why would they make THAT decision?" assume it is yourself that is ignorant and take it as an opportunity to learn, rather than dismiss the choices of people who specialize in the area you are puzzled by.
deleted 2y ago
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hiccuphippo 2y ago
According to this video[0] the shape is because there's a requirement for 95th percentile males to be able to stand up inside and the front is low for 5th percentile females to be able to see a specific distance in front of the hood. The shape makes perfect sense. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rt6z4QvtQL8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rt6z4QvtQL8
juunpp 2y ago
I thought it was going to be about duck typing.
yongjik 2y ago
Honestly I think it looks great - the design screams "I care for pedestrian safety" and "I'm a nice person, and I don't need to compensate for anything, because I have great sex life."
whatio 2y ago
It was designed with the person who will operate it in mind and it's made in the USA. That means it looks fantastic to me.
deleted 2y ago
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Animats 2y ago
The job of delivery services today is delivering small packages, not information. So everybody (USPS, UPS, Amazon) is converging on the same feature set: - Van big enough to stand up in - Door between driver compartment and package storage - Bin/shelf type package storage, not bags or piles - Good visibility - Battery electric - Optimized for 0 to 30 MPH with lots of stops. Aerodynamics don't matter much. Regenerative braking does. Amazon has some cute features. The driver wears some small RFID device, and when they step out of the truck, the door to package storage closes and locks, and the truck won't move. Amazon's new vans also have very high visibility from the rear, with many LEDs, so it's hard to rear-end them by accident. Good because they double-part frequently.
vondur 2y ago
Crazy it took 10 years to plan and get them in production. I think it looks cool.
littlekey 2y ago
>Ykeyler Barnes, a letter carrier in Athens, said when she first got her new electric mail truck, she thought it wasn’t working when she pushed the button to start it. So she called a mechanic to check it out. “He said, ‘It starts — you just can’t hear it because it’s electric,’” Ms. Barnes said. “I thought that was so funny. I came home and told my family and we got a good laugh out of it.” My favorite part of this, so wholesome. It really is shocking to hear the difference when you've been driving/hearing gas vehicles your whole life.
paulnpace 2y ago
> For 19 years, Richard Burton, a letter carrier in Athens, Ga., drove the classic boxy mail truck... After reading this, I realized I still perceive the the current generation as the new generation. Geez.
- paulnpace 2y ago
  Wow, old people get downvotes for being old people now.
Havoc 2y ago
Sounds like they designed it for the target audience. A rare luxury these days for blue collar workers. Often designs focus on max profit
vaadu 2y ago
Another government boondoggle. The vehicle requirements were at the level of a combat vehicle so only one or two companies with DOD experience could win the contract. And the result is a $60k+ camel designed by committee.
magic_smoke_ee 2y ago
Burners (of people who are still) with Cushmans will probably be seen with LLVs now.
cco 2y ago
I _love_ USPS. Glad we're starting to see these roll out.

126 points by vincentchau 2y ago

fencepost 2y ago

How could they not love them in comparison to the 30+ year old vehicles they've been driving?

rectang 2y ago
Cultural hostility among a subpopulation to electric vehicles as "woke"? Ordinary sentimentality and the natural human discomfort with change?
- fencepost 2y ago
  I have great faith in the ability of ahem some individuals to harm themselves out of spite or inability to recognize inbound leopards, but I'm pretty sure that even those would find the new vehicles to be an improvement even if they're EVs - at least if they're actually driving the old and new vehicles.
  - evan_ 2y ago
    plenty of folks will soil themselves if it means the people they dislike will have to smell it
potato3732842 2y ago
Frequently "improvements" come at the expense of compromising some key feature for lots of users. This is particularly true in tall organizations where the people doing procurement are far from the users.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

smitelli 2y ago

Say what you will about the Grumman LLV, but every one of them you see on the road today is at least 30 years old, and some could be pushing 40. (The similar-looking Ford-Utilimaster FFV is ~25 this year.) As uncomfortable as it must be to sit in one for hours on end (I never had the privilege myself) you've got to respect their longevity. Here's hoping these new trucks make it to the 2050s and beyond.

hex4def6 2y ago
"While the all-aluminum body of the LLV has resisted corrosion exceptionally well over the years, the main powertrain components have been replaced multiple times and now must be sourced through aftermarket manufacturing. This has significantly increased repair costs while reducing performance and reliability. In fact, the Postal Service had to contract an alternative supplier to reverse engineer and manufacture the chassis frame to keep the LLV operational. As a result, the average annual maintenance cost exceeds $5,000, with 7% of LLVs exceeding $10,000 annually. Additionally, they are less fuel-efficient and unsuitable for future delivery needs given projected changes in market demand, mail mix, and increasing delivery points. The LLVs also lack modern safety features such as airbags, anti-lock brakes, air conditioning, back-up cameras, blind-spot warning systems, daytime running lights, and seatbelt reminders." https://uspsngdveis.com/documents/USPS+NGDV+FEIS_Dec+2021.pdf https://uspsngdveis.com/documents/USPS+NGDV+FEIS_Dec+2021.pd... Sort of a Ship of Theseus vehicle. Yes, some have lasted over 40 years, but that's with potentially multiple drivetrain replacements, at an annual maintenance cost of $5,000 - $10,000. That feels high, given how simple those vehicles are.
- varikin 2y ago
  I believe the LLV line was only suppose to be in service for 20 years, but the government gonna government and not find a replacement till it's almost too late. So yes it was a lot of scrounging and probably a lot of USPS mechanics needing to be creative, but the LLV lasted twice as long as it was designed for. I expect this same conversation will happen again in another 40 years.
  - 2y ago

jacobsenscott 2y ago

[flagged]

kaveet 2y ago

http://archive.today/Mcwu5 http://archive.today/Mcwu5

postoplust 2y ago

The seat height in the banner image looks too tall for the mailboxes. I wonder how the seat height in the NGDV compares to the Grumman LLV.

reaperducer 2y ago
The seat height in the banner image looks too tall for the mailboxes. The very first image in the article shows a driver putting mail in a mailbox. What more proof do you need? https://static01.nyt.com/images/2024/11/20/multimedia/00xp-mailtrucks-03-mkpt/00xp-mailtrucks-03-mkpt-superJumbo.jpg https://static01.nyt.com/images/2024/11/20/multimedia/00xp-m...
- toast0 2y ago
  It looks like the letter carrier has to reach down to get to that mailbox. Yes, they can reach it, but I wonder about ergonomics. Not all mailboxes are the same height, so you probably have to reach down for some, but if this is a representative mailbox, I worry.

garciansmith 2y ago

I've read so much knocking their appearance, which is so confusing to me. It's ultimately function over form in this case; who cares if you don't like how it looks? I can only dream that the visibility and safety of having features like such a low hood and large bumpers would be incorporated into other vehicles (i.e., every SUV ever).

tantalor 2y ago
> It's ultimately form over function in this case Doesn't "form over function" mean the opposite of your usage? Form = appearance Function = usefulness
- garciansmith 2y ago
  Yes, I just reversed it by mistake!
- PittleyDunkin 2y ago
  I took this to mean that critiquing appearance is itself form over function.
  - tantalor 2y ago
    Oh. What does that even mean? Saying something is "form over function" is not derogatory. Lots of great inventions prioritize form over function (iPod comes to mind).
    - phil21 2y ago
      iPod was famously both though? The click-wheel was pretty unique and worked great to make an accessible UIx for the masses. It may have been somewhat limiting in edge cases, but for normal usage I don't recall anyone complaining about it outside of hardcore tech circles.
      - tantalor 2y ago

pearlsontheroad 2y ago

I'm proud to have helped implement the brand new dedicated ERP system that is used to build these trucks. Nice to see the final product is hitting the streets.

bnc319 2y ago
Can you provide some more information as to what the ERP system is built on? (i.e. open source software, "from scratch", etc?)
- pearlsontheroad 2y ago
  Latest Oracle JDE E1
mmooss 2y ago
I think you owe us some information to satisfy 'intellectual curiosity'! :) I'll start: Why did they create a brand-new and why a dedicated ERP system? Didn't the manufacturer have an ERP system used for manufacturing other vehicles?

xnx 2y ago

I don't mind the appearance if it serves a function, but what's the function? An electric truck wouldn't need a traditional engine compartment.

capital_guy 2y ago
A crumple zone?
dylan604 2y ago
i guess they could have made it flat nosed like a bus?? are they putting the batteries in the nose? it looks like the cargo part is too low for them to be placed under there. also, gotta put that ac somewhere. probably makes it easier to work on under the little hood than having to climb on top of the truck.
varikin 2y ago
According to Wikipedia[1]: > Four variants of the NGDV are expected to be in fleet use: both gasoline-powered and battery-electric, in either front wheel drive or all wheel drive. So I expect the front hood is for the gas powered engine for those variants. Further down, it talks about only 10% will be EV at the start due to cost. Also, this is in partnership with Ford so the ICE power train is the from the Ford Transit van. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oshkosh_NGDV https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oshkosh_NGDV
fencepost 2y ago
They aren't/weren't all going to be EVs. Originally the USPS was looking at 10% EVs and 90% internal combustion but there were a bunch of challenges to that (including that ratio being based on incorrect environmental impact data). Now it's 75% EVs in the first order of 60,000 and future orders may be that high or higher (currently expected that it will be all EVs starting in 2026). sources: article and wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oshkosh_NGDV https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oshkosh_NGDV)
agent281 2y ago
One benefit of a low hood is that it scoops up pedestrians that might get hit instead of hitting their torsos with the vehicle. It'll probably break your legs, but you are more likely to survive. This is one of the reasons that SUVs and large trucks are deadly: it's basically hitting you directly in the chest cavity.

schiffern 2y ago

Yes, It ‘Looks Like a Duck,’ but... ...but that means it's far safer for pedestrians than the currently-in-vogue "bulldozer" vehicle front ends. I for one welcome our new duck-shaped overlords.

matsemann 2y ago
Direct Vision Standards[0] should implemented as a mandatory requirement everywhere for large vehicles traveling in cities or residential areas where there's "soft road users"[1] (pedestrians, cyclists). Should be able to see straight to the side and know you're not running someone over. [0]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_Vision_Standard https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_Vision_Standard [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-motorist https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-motorist
- morsch 2y ago
  I was squeezing by in front of a modern garbage truck this morning that basically had a glass side door. It was great: I could actually establish eye contact with the driver and sign that I was going to drive in front of him and he could give me small wave to go ahead. The driver of a less modern truck would have had no way at all to see me, much less communicate with me.

whalesalad 2y ago

Interesting that the front windshield only has about 50-60% usable space. On the top this makes sense, as the black coating acts as a sun shade. On the bottom... there goes all the visibility gained by having the low hood. wtf? The upfitter AUX switches appear to be Ford, same for the AC controls.

ceejayoz 2y ago
The final photo in the article appears to show pretty good forward visiblity. Seems fine?
jacobgkau 2y ago
> On the bottom... there goes all the visibility gained by having the low hood. wtf? That is a little weird, now that I look at it again. But the way you'd use the rest of that bottom space would be by lowering the driver, basically, and that would mean the driver's not as high up over the hood. So maybe getting the higher angle gains more visibility than having them sit lower just to maximize usable windshield area? (The only way you could have both is if the dashboard was transparent.)
cooljoseph 2y ago
The camera is positioned so that the side window is visible through the front windshield. I think the "black coating" you are seeing is just the interior of the van, and that the entire front windshield is usable.
starkparker 2y ago
> The upfitter AUX switches appear to be Ford, same for the AC controls. Ford supplies the ICE engine, transmission, suspension, steering wheel, and instrument cluster, so that tracks. https://fordauthority.com/2024/10/new-usps-mail-carrier-uses-ford-steering-wheel-cluster/ https://fordauthority.com/2024/10/new-usps-mail-carrier-uses...
justsomehnguy 2y ago
My $5 it's the usual 'too late to change'. Compare with the 2021 version. Also the if you trace LoS in the cabin pic in the article you would find what the driver wouldn't see more of the hood because he need to be sat quite a lot higher (up to 20cm I think) to gain the view you are thinking of. And this is incompatible with 'do the mailman thing without getting out of chair'. https://www.nalc.org/news/the-postal-record/2021/may-2021/document/Vehicles.pdf https://www.nalc.org/news/the-postal-record/2021/may-2021/do...

hoherd 2y ago

This is great news! The design is interesting though. Why would they choose such a hard angle for the hood and windshield vs something more gentle? Does anybody know why they made that design choice?

NotSammyHagar 2y ago
read other comments, so talk people can stand up in the back and short people and see over the hood.

fatboy 2y ago

After driving a new Mercedes Vito (I can't describe how insane the controls of this vehicle are, but it has capacitive-touch buttons that you have to swipe to change the stereo volume ON THE STEERING WHEEL), I long for controls that look like this: https://static01.nyt.com/images/2024/11/20/multimedia/00xp-mailtrucks-08-mkpt/00xp-mailtrucks-08-mkpt-mobileMasterAt3x.jpg?quality=75&auto=webp&disable=upscale&width=1800 https://static01.nyt.com/images/2024/11/20/multimedia/00xp-m...

unethical_ban 2y ago
Tactile controls should be the default. I was actually interested in the Lincoln Corsair until I saw how much they rely on touch - even for things like the climate control, same as the Teslas. Instantly took it off the list.
- silisili 2y ago
  That's why I won't even consider a Tesla. Test drove a few vehicles and it's amazing how many do touch screen everything now. Will -not- buy. The one I ended up buying is all tactile except changing the radio stations. Even that gets really annoying, as you have to take your eyes off the road to change stations. I end up just poking it in random places blind until something happens.

stanski 2y ago

Reminds me of the Pilatus PC-6. Another ugly duckling (in some people's eyes) that's a workhorse.

AcerbicZero 2y ago

lol they're paying (with my money) something like 60k for each one of those. Should have just bought police explorers like the cops are driving and saved 15-20k+ per unit. Plus as a bonus you might have actual parts availability for the foreseeable future, unlike when Oshkosh corp decides burning money in a barrel is more financially viable than building replacement parts for the postal service and the 40-70k of these that they'll actually get ordered before the budget gets slashed or whatever.

imp0cat 2y ago

Needs just one thing - light blue paintjob with an orange beak and a tiny purple hat. ;)

evan_ 2y ago
I was just thinking they need a special green and yellow variant for the southern Willamette Valley... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Oregon_Duck https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Oregon_Duck

ggreer 2y ago

I wondered why other delivery companies use commercial vehicles instead of NGDVs or LLVs, and the answer is that commercial vehicles are more capable while being significantly cheaper. NGDVs cost $60,000 each, and that's for half of them being ICE vehicles and half EVs with a 70 mile range (35 miles if you use the heater). The ICE version gets 14.7 miles per gallon (8.6mpg if you turn on the air conditioning).[1] There is no hybrid version, which is outrageous considering the expected driving profile. For comparison, a Mercedes eSprinter (which has more cargo capacity and >2x the range of the NGDV) starts at $63,475 MSRP. I'm sure a bulk order of 50,000 would get a significant discount. This whole project seems to be a handout to a defense contractor, not an efficient use of funds. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oshkosh_NGDV#Fuel_economy_and_range https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oshkosh_NGDV#Fuel_economy_and_...

mschuster91 2y ago
> I wondered why other delivery companies use commercial vehicles instead of NGDVs or LLVs, and the answer is that commercial vehicles are more capable while being significantly cheaper. Commercial vehicles in fleets are leased - they last anywhere from 2-5 years then they're pushed off to the used vehicle market. After 10-15 years they're so done that they'll end up on the scrap yard or shipped off to Africa or Asia. On top of that they're designed to be aerodynamic at highway speeds because they'll spend a lot of their life time on such streets and speeds, whereas these postal trucks will spend most of their time moving like snails. These USPS tanks in contrast are expected to last 30, 40 years like their predecessors, racking up insane mileage... and while no one cares if some underpaid gig worker runs over some child because the child happened to be in the dead spot of his vehicle, if the same happens to USPS the government itself is the target for a nice juicy lawsuit. So it makes sense for a custom order at that scale and expected life time, and it also makes sense to stray from what the market has to offer because the requirements are different. Oh, and commercial delivery doesn't have to take care about its workers. They'll get burned out with their backs and joints ruined, but the companies don't have to pay a dime. In contrast, USPS is a government agency and has a massive financial incentive to keep healthcare costs low.
greenthrow 2y ago
As usual when you take a dismissive stance ("this is obviously a waste of money!") you are ignoring lots od details. The use case of a mail carrier is not well suited by a massive eSprinter. They have no need for something so large. They want to be seated at the height where most mailboxes are so they can make many deliveries without getting out of the car. Whenever you find yourself going "why would they make THAT decision?" assume it is yourself that is ignorant and take it as an opportunity to learn, rather than dismiss the choices of people who specialize in the area you are puzzled by.

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hiccuphippo 2y ago

According to this video[0] the shape is because there's a requirement for 95th percentile males to be able to stand up inside and the front is low for 5th percentile females to be able to see a specific distance in front of the hood. The shape makes perfect sense. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rt6z4QvtQL8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rt6z4QvtQL8

juunpp 2y ago

I thought it was going to be about duck typing.

yongjik 2y ago

Honestly I think it looks great - the design screams "I care for pedestrian safety" and "I'm a nice person, and I don't need to compensate for anything, because I have great sex life."

whatio 2y ago

It was designed with the person who will operate it in mind and it's made in the USA. That means it looks fantastic to me.

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Animats 2y ago

The job of delivery services today is delivering small packages, not information. So everybody (USPS, UPS, Amazon) is converging on the same feature set: - Van big enough to stand up in - Door between driver compartment and package storage - Bin/shelf type package storage, not bags or piles - Good visibility - Battery electric - Optimized for 0 to 30 MPH with lots of stops. Aerodynamics don't matter much. Regenerative braking does. Amazon has some cute features. The driver wears some small RFID device, and when they step out of the truck, the door to package storage closes and locks, and the truck won't move. Amazon's new vans also have very high visibility from the rear, with many LEDs, so it's hard to rear-end them by accident. Good because they double-part frequently.

vondur 2y ago

Crazy it took 10 years to plan and get them in production. I think it looks cool.

littlekey 2y ago

>Ykeyler Barnes, a letter carrier in Athens, said when she first got her new electric mail truck, she thought it wasn’t working when she pushed the button to start it. So she called a mechanic to check it out. “He said, ‘It starts — you just can’t hear it because it’s electric,’” Ms. Barnes said. “I thought that was so funny. I came home and told my family and we got a good laugh out of it.” My favorite part of this, so wholesome. It really is shocking to hear the difference when you've been driving/hearing gas vehicles your whole life.

paulnpace 2y ago

> For 19 years, Richard Burton, a letter carrier in Athens, Ga., drove the classic boxy mail truck... After reading this, I realized I still perceive the the current generation as the new generation. Geez.

paulnpace 2y ago
Wow, old people get downvotes for being old people now.

Havoc 2y ago

Sounds like they designed it for the target audience. A rare luxury these days for blue collar workers. Often designs focus on max profit

vaadu 2y ago

Another government boondoggle. The vehicle requirements were at the level of a combat vehicle so only one or two companies with DOD experience could win the contract. And the result is a $60k+ camel designed by committee.

magic_smoke_ee 2y ago

Burners (of people who are still) with Cushmans will probably be seen with LLVs now.

cco 2y ago

I _love_ USPS. Glad we're starting to see these roll out.