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I was disturbed to see that pg killed an earlier thread on this company, on a rather flimsy basis. The financial industry is obviously ripe for disruption, but

I was disturbed to see that pg killed an earlier thread on this company, on a rather flimsy basis. The financial industry is obviously ripe for disruption, but if those being disrupted can kick up enough dust to have HN erase all memory of a new idea, we have a bigger problem.

tzs 14y ago
It was not a flimsy basis. The site was specifically claiming online notarization was legal in all states, if I recall correctly[1]. It is NOT legal in California. They now appear to have modified their claims. As far as I can see, they only say online signing is legal, not online notarization. [1] The Internet Archive has not crawled them since 2009, when the domain appears to have been used for something completely different, so I can't check to be sure exactly what they said and what has changed.
- aisalwaysa 14y ago
  You're not understanding the facts, online notarization IS legal in California... the notaries themselves can't be in California, but the signers can. Signers can notarize from anywhere in the world, including California, since the notaries follow Virginia law. It's like how lenders and credit companies often use Utah law (but can lend elsewhere) or corporations incorporate in Delaware.
  - rprasad 14y ago
    No, online notarization is not legal anywhere in the world, except Virgnia. This is not at all similar to how lenders can use Utah law but incorporate in Delaware. Choice of legal forum is a contractual issue between private parties. Notorization is a legal issue involving the government. Notaries act as government agents when they notarize, so each legal jurisdiction gets to set the standards for legal notarization within their jurisdiction. States are not required to honor notarizations performed in another state under the Full Faith and Credit Clause because notarization is not considered a "public act" but most states will accept notarizations from other states if the standards in the other state are the same or stricter than the first state. Hence, while signers can notarize from anywhere in the world using SignNow, they can't use this notarization for anything except for transactions governed by Virginia law and subject to the jurisdiction of Virginia courts. This makes the service effectively useless for anyone who does not live in Virginia, since other state courts do not have to accept the notarization.
    - mchusma 14y ago
      The National Association of Secretaries of State disagree with you, including in the following public report "Issues and Trends in State Notary Regulation: NASS Report on State Notarization Policies and Practice" found here: http://www.nass.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=226&Itemid=469 http://www.nass.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=ar... Key Quotes Regarding electronic notarization: “New state and federal laws, such as the 2000 Electronic Signatures in Global and National Commerce Act (E-SIGN), authorize every state-commissioned notary in the nation to use electronic signatures in performing official acts.” Regarding Out Of State Acceptance “State laws...already recognize the validity of out-of-state notarizations, the state and federal evidence rules that recognize notarial acts as self-authenticating, and the Full Faith and Credit Clause of the U.S. Constitution.” States would have to pass legislation against online notarization to prevent its acceptance. Several states have put out warnings, including the state of California. This notice was published prior to the legal change and has apparently not been reviewed by state counsel. We have received clarification, consistent with all communication from other states, that they are only concerned with online notarization conducted by their notaries.
      - rprasad 14y ago
        The National Tobacco Association claims that cigarretes aren't cancerous. The secretaries of state license notaries, so this is no different than an interested trade group pushing the economic interests of its members. Despite the NASS stance on out-of-state notarization, the states themselves, and the courts, actually get to decide whether an out-of-state notarization can be used in the jurisdiction. Many routinely reject out-of-state notarizations which fail to satisfy the standards for notarizations within that state. (Federal courts are different--they will accept notarizations if the notarization would be valid under the laws of the forum state.)
        mchusma 14y ago
        Comparing the Association of Secretaries of State to the Tobacco lobby is misleading. The Secretaries of State represent the state, and their opinion that out-of-state notarizations are valid everywhere means the regulators are saying they think this is true. In other words, in your tobacco analogy, Secretaries of State are closer to the FDA than the Tobacco Association.
  - tzs 14y ago
    The California Secretary of State says: "California law requires a person to appear personally before a notary public to obtain notarial acts like acknowledgments or jurats".
    - aisalwaysa 14y ago
      Yes, if you are a CALIFORNIA NOTARY than you must follow their requirements. NOT if you are a Virginia Notary, then you follow Virginia Law, and your clients, wherever they are in the world, adhere to your Virginia requirements.
      - tzs 14y ago
        There have been many cases of state courts rejecting out of state notarizations that did not comply with the requirements of the state in which the court sits. There was a bill a few years ago in Congress that tried to make it so that states would have to honor out of state notarizations, but this bill was vetoed. Until such a bill is signed into law, or either the 9th Circuit or the Supreme Court rules that states must accept out of state notarizations that do not meet the in-state notary requirements, then any notarization in which you are not present is questionable in California.
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
- lesterbuck 14y ago
  The exact legal details of is so/is not is hardly to be decided on Hacker News. I am disturbed that one side gets its opinion heard and -- poof! -- down the memory hole that topic goes. It's really just a small version of SOPA in our community. PayPal, when it launched, was illegal in all fifty states. Would Hacker News have suppressed discussions of PayPal's business model?
  - mchusma 14y ago
    Good point. Virginia certainly seems to think that it is legal for notaries to notarize across state lines. Perhaps CA disagrees, but they have never really stated as such.
- mchusma 14y ago
  You are not recalling correctly, never stated it was legal for notaries in all states.

tzs 14y ago

It was not a flimsy basis. The site was specifically claiming online notarization was legal in all states, if I recall correctly[1]. It is NOT legal in California. They now appear to have modified their claims. As far as I can see, they only say online signing is legal, not online notarization. [1] The Internet Archive has not crawled them since 2009, when the domain appears to have been used for something completely different, so I can't check to be sure exactly what they said and what has changed.

aisalwaysa 14y ago
You're not understanding the facts, online notarization IS legal in California... the notaries themselves can't be in California, but the signers can. Signers can notarize from anywhere in the world, including California, since the notaries follow Virginia law. It's like how lenders and credit companies often use Utah law (but can lend elsewhere) or corporations incorporate in Delaware.
- rprasad 14y ago
  No, online notarization is not legal anywhere in the world, except Virgnia. This is not at all similar to how lenders can use Utah law but incorporate in Delaware. Choice of legal forum is a contractual issue between private parties. Notorization is a legal issue involving the government. Notaries act as government agents when they notarize, so each legal jurisdiction gets to set the standards for legal notarization within their jurisdiction. States are not required to honor notarizations performed in another state under the Full Faith and Credit Clause because notarization is not considered a "public act" but most states will accept notarizations from other states if the standards in the other state are the same or stricter than the first state. Hence, while signers can notarize from anywhere in the world using SignNow, they can't use this notarization for anything except for transactions governed by Virginia law and subject to the jurisdiction of Virginia courts. This makes the service effectively useless for anyone who does not live in Virginia, since other state courts do not have to accept the notarization.
  - mchusma 14y ago
    The National Association of Secretaries of State disagree with you, including in the following public report "Issues and Trends in State Notary Regulation: NASS Report on State Notarization Policies and Practice" found here: http://www.nass.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=226&Itemid=469 http://www.nass.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=ar... Key Quotes Regarding electronic notarization: “New state and federal laws, such as the 2000 Electronic Signatures in Global and National Commerce Act (E-SIGN), authorize every state-commissioned notary in the nation to use electronic signatures in performing official acts.” Regarding Out Of State Acceptance “State laws...already recognize the validity of out-of-state notarizations, the state and federal evidence rules that recognize notarial acts as self-authenticating, and the Full Faith and Credit Clause of the U.S. Constitution.” States would have to pass legislation against online notarization to prevent its acceptance. Several states have put out warnings, including the state of California. This notice was published prior to the legal change and has apparently not been reviewed by state counsel. We have received clarification, consistent with all communication from other states, that they are only concerned with online notarization conducted by their notaries.
    - rprasad 14y ago
      The National Tobacco Association claims that cigarretes aren't cancerous. The secretaries of state license notaries, so this is no different than an interested trade group pushing the economic interests of its members. Despite the NASS stance on out-of-state notarization, the states themselves, and the courts, actually get to decide whether an out-of-state notarization can be used in the jurisdiction. Many routinely reject out-of-state notarizations which fail to satisfy the standards for notarizations within that state. (Federal courts are different--they will accept notarizations if the notarization would be valid under the laws of the forum state.)
      - mchusma 14y ago
        Comparing the Association of Secretaries of State to the Tobacco lobby is misleading. The Secretaries of State represent the state, and their opinion that out-of-state notarizations are valid everywhere means the regulators are saying they think this is true. In other words, in your tobacco analogy, Secretaries of State are closer to the FDA than the Tobacco Association.
- tzs 14y ago
  The California Secretary of State says: "California law requires a person to appear personally before a notary public to obtain notarial acts like acknowledgments or jurats".
  - aisalwaysa 14y ago
    Yes, if you are a CALIFORNIA NOTARY than you must follow their requirements. NOT if you are a Virginia Notary, then you follow Virginia Law, and your clients, wherever they are in the world, adhere to your Virginia requirements.
    - tzs 14y ago
      There have been many cases of state courts rejecting out of state notarizations that did not comply with the requirements of the state in which the court sits. There was a bill a few years ago in Congress that tried to make it so that states would have to honor out of state notarizations, but this bill was vetoed. Until such a bill is signed into law, or either the 9th Circuit or the Supreme Court rules that states must accept out of state notarizations that do not meet the in-state notary requirements, then any notarization in which you are not present is questionable in California.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
lesterbuck 14y ago
The exact legal details of is so/is not is hardly to be decided on Hacker News. I am disturbed that one side gets its opinion heard and -- poof! -- down the memory hole that topic goes. It's really just a small version of SOPA in our community. PayPal, when it launched, was illegal in all fifty states. Would Hacker News have suppressed discussions of PayPal's business model?
- mchusma 14y ago
  Good point. Virginia certainly seems to think that it is legal for notaries to notarize across state lines. Perhaps CA disagrees, but they have never really stated as such.
mchusma 14y ago
You are not recalling correctly, never stated it was legal for notaries in all states.