4 ms·

Can't they simply refuse on moral/ethical grounds? Like, we had "Service Civique" in France till the 2000-something for those who refused the draft. I spent one

Can't they simply refuse on moral/ethical grounds? Like, we had "Service Civique" in France till the 2000-something for those who refused the draft. I spent one year washing the floors of a penitentiary instead and honestly I don't regret it at all.

alephnerd 2y ago
> Can't they simply refuse on moral/ethical grounds Nope. That's a Western thing. Conscientious objectors are allowed, but then you must work in a jail.
- diggan 2y ago
  Maybe it's borderline not "Western", but Turkey famously haven't gotten to allow people to refuse service. > In 2021 Europe was not a safe place for many conscientious objectors in several countries who faced prosecution, arrests, trials by military courts, imprisonments, fines, intimidation, attacks, death threats, and discrimination. These countries include Turkey (the only CoE Member State who has not yet recognised the right to conscientious objection) https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/2022-05/EBCO-HRC50.pdf https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/2022-05/EBCO-HRC50... I think I remember talking with some Greek person at some point as well, where "conscientious objection" theoretically exists, but the alternative ends up longer than the military service + basically feels like a punishment, rather than an alternative.
  - alephnerd 2y ago
    By "Western" I think I meant "stereotypical Western and Northern European" > I think I remember talking with some Greek person at some point as well, where "conscientious objection" theoretically exists, but the alternative ends up longer than the military service + basically feels like a punishment, rather than an alternative. Same in Israel and South Korea
  - Ekaros 2y ago
    Finland too has options of military service, civil service(guaranteed to be equal length to maximum military) or incarceration. Later which usually is mostly not inside institution, but with tracking and quarantine inside home. Getting too fat would work if you find a doctor to write a paper and you will get away with it during peace time.
- terminalgravity 2y ago
  Alternatively they can work in care facilities (elderly care, psychiatric hospitals, etc…). I dont have the details but i know a few people who did this
- red-iron-pine 2y ago
  nah you don't need to be in a jail, but you do need to prove this has been a deep seated view, and one you've held for a long time. the Amish, for example, don't get drafted. same with priests, or folks who can demonstrate a long history of attending Quaker services, or membership in the Humanist league, etc.
  - alephnerd 2y ago
    The US is not South Korea. The social contract and expectations in Korean society are different from the US.
Cumpiler69 2y ago
>Like, we had "Service Civique" in France till the 2000-something for those who refused the draft. France doesn't border a totalitarian nuclear power though. Your civil liberties are determined by your place in the geopolitical lottery, not by what your wishes are. Once you border an aggressive and dangerous state, then your (male) body becomes the government's property. Unfortunately.
- diggan 2y ago
  Technically, I guess one or more of France's overseas territories are near the maritime zones of nuclear-armed countries, but considering direct land or maritime borders, you're right.
  - Cumpiler69 2y ago
    Technically you're right, I forgot France is stil running a colonial empire on the side with territories around the world for force projection and tax dodging. That's why France has the foreign legion though. They get cannon fodder and give them citizenship in return.
- impossiblefork 2y ago
  Not the government's property. It's more that you're a citizen like in a polis. An element of citizenship is mutual aid and participation in the military and political life of the state. Of course, if you're excluded from part of this, then we do end up in the situation you describe-- maybe doing this properly even requires direct democracy.

alephnerd 2y ago

> Can't they simply refuse on moral/ethical grounds Nope. That's a Western thing. Conscientious objectors are allowed, but then you must work in a jail.

diggan 2y ago
Maybe it's borderline not "Western", but Turkey famously haven't gotten to allow people to refuse service. > In 2021 Europe was not a safe place for many conscientious objectors in several countries who faced prosecution, arrests, trials by military courts, imprisonments, fines, intimidation, attacks, death threats, and discrimination. These countries include Turkey (the only CoE Member State who has not yet recognised the right to conscientious objection) https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/2022-05/EBCO-HRC50.pdf https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/2022-05/EBCO-HRC50... I think I remember talking with some Greek person at some point as well, where "conscientious objection" theoretically exists, but the alternative ends up longer than the military service + basically feels like a punishment, rather than an alternative.
- alephnerd 2y ago
  By "Western" I think I meant "stereotypical Western and Northern European" > I think I remember talking with some Greek person at some point as well, where "conscientious objection" theoretically exists, but the alternative ends up longer than the military service + basically feels like a punishment, rather than an alternative. Same in Israel and South Korea
- Ekaros 2y ago
  Finland too has options of military service, civil service(guaranteed to be equal length to maximum military) or incarceration. Later which usually is mostly not inside institution, but with tracking and quarantine inside home. Getting too fat would work if you find a doctor to write a paper and you will get away with it during peace time.
terminalgravity 2y ago
Alternatively they can work in care facilities (elderly care, psychiatric hospitals, etc…). I dont have the details but i know a few people who did this
red-iron-pine 2y ago
nah you don't need to be in a jail, but you do need to prove this has been a deep seated view, and one you've held for a long time. the Amish, for example, don't get drafted. same with priests, or folks who can demonstrate a long history of attending Quaker services, or membership in the Humanist league, etc.
- alephnerd 2y ago
  The US is not South Korea. The social contract and expectations in Korean society are different from the US.

Cumpiler69 2y ago

>Like, we had "Service Civique" in France till the 2000-something for those who refused the draft. France doesn't border a totalitarian nuclear power though. Your civil liberties are determined by your place in the geopolitical lottery, not by what your wishes are. Once you border an aggressive and dangerous state, then your (male) body becomes the government's property. Unfortunately.

diggan 2y ago
Technically, I guess one or more of France's overseas territories are near the maritime zones of nuclear-armed countries, but considering direct land or maritime borders, you're right.
- Cumpiler69 2y ago
  Technically you're right, I forgot France is stil running a colonial empire on the side with territories around the world for force projection and tax dodging. That's why France has the foreign legion though. They get cannon fodder and give them citizenship in return.
impossiblefork 2y ago
Not the government's property. It's more that you're a citizen like in a polis. An element of citizenship is mutual aid and participation in the military and political life of the state. Of course, if you're excluded from part of this, then we do end up in the situation you describe-- maybe doing this properly even requires direct democracy.