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This is simply not true. Let's look at the best autonomous driving features available today, i.e. level 3: Mercedes Drive Pilot: Uses a lidar (and a dummy unit

This is simply not true. Let's look at the best autonomous driving features available today, i.e. level 3: Mercedes Drive Pilot: Uses a lidar (and a dummy unit) up front. BMW Personal Pilot: Uses a lidar (and a dummy unit) up front Honda SENSING Elite: Uses 5! lidars They all use lidar, and some of the placement locations are downright hideous (Mercedes EQS). I think further development will require even more/better sensors, and manufacturers tend to agree on this point.

asdasdsddd 2y ago
What are the benchmarks that say Mercedes, BMW, and Honda have the best level 3 features.
- fragmede 2y ago
  Don't forget Blue Cruise from Ford.
  - Klaus23 2y ago
    Blue Cruise is level 2+, not 3, and does not rely on lidar.
- Klaus23 2y ago
  I ignore the Chinese because it is difficult to get reliable English information. Apart from those, these are the only level 3 systems available, and level 3 is the most advanced system that private individuals can currently get their hands on. Have I missed any?
- luos2 2y ago
  It's not a benchmark, but there is a youtube channel (Out of Spec) which tests these systems, and I think they also say Mercedes are the best in their "Hogback challenge". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xK3NcHSH49Q&list=PLVa4b_Vn4gbBRwZoFf2rrenzUwsKU0jZk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xK3NcHSH49Q&list=PLVa4b_Vn4g... Worth checking out, many cars are very bad.
  - GoToRO 2y ago
    Sponsored by Magna, probably the contractor selling them the system...
ra7 2y ago
Chinese OEMs (BYD, Xaomi, Nio) use lidar in almost all of their mid to premium segments. Also, Polestar 3.
- UltraSane 2y ago
  How well do they work? Camera only systems can be easily blinded by sun, fog, dirt, and snow
quonn 2y ago
Maybe they changed their mind on it in the last 10 years. I had as the source a high-ranking BMW manager as well as an Audi one who each gave a public lecture at a university with such a statement.
- Klaus23 2y ago
  After a bit of research, I found out that they apparently did. Obviously every manufacturer would like to be able to use only proven technologies such as cameras and radar because they are cheap. One of the early Mercedes prototypes seemingly didn't have lidar <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlgGTi4Gs50&t=79 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlgGTi4Gs50&t=79>. Since then, the consensus has been that without lidar, the systems would not meet safety standards. For example, the cars need to be able to detect fairly flat objects, such as pallets that have fallen onto the road, which are very difficult to see optically, especially in difficult lighting conditions. For this reason, and because the technology has come down in price, virtually everyone except Tesla, which is developing advanced driving systems, is using lidar. This development is nearly a decade old. It is for this reason, combined with the overwhelming amount of Musk-related nonsense, that I objected so strongly.
tordrt 2y ago
All of these are far less capable than FSD. They might have more advanced regulatory approval because they have strong limitations of when it can be used, but if you drive the same route and compare, its not even close.
- Klaus23 2y ago
  I doubt it. Yes, FSD is more flexible and can also drive reasonably well on city streets, but there is a reason why it is not certified for level 3 on motorways. It would most likely fail certification. With a level 3 system, I can take my eyes off the road and watch a movie. Doing that with FSD, even in the best conditions, is suicidal. Level 3 vehicles must have an extremely low failure rate. Any crash would quickly be picked up by the media. FSD is a versatile level 2 system, but at best a prototype for level 3. If we are talking about prototypes, it has to be compared to prototypes from other manufacturers like this <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uSph0asNsk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uSph0asNsk> fully autonomous system from ... 11 years ago. The reason FSD is available to the average consumer is mostly a matter of philosophy, not technology.
  - bigstrat2003 2y ago
    > With a level 3 system, I can take my eyes off the road and watch a movie. Doing that with FSD, even in the best conditions, is suicidal. That is hyperbole at best. I've test driven a Tesla with FSD and it worked flawlessly, such that I would have been perfectly safe taking my eyes off the road. Of course one test drive is not sufficient data to say one should trust the system all the time, but you are making the claim that it is never trustworthy which isn't true.
    - Klaus23 2y ago
      Oh, it's 100% trustworthy until it suddenly isn't. I have driven a number of level 2 cars on the motorway and almost all of them can do extended zero-intervention driving, but that does not make them safe. The failure rate compared to humans is still sky high. Multiple independent FSD tests have shown that you need to take over several times an hour to avoid dangerous or illegal situations <https://electrek.co/2024/09/26/tesla-full-self-driving-third-party-testing-13-miles-between-interventions/ https://electrek.co/2024/09/26/tesla-full-self-driving-third...>. The number will be lower on a motorway and you will sometimes have time to correct even if you are not looking, but the number of failures is still significant. If you take your eyes off the road, it is only a matter of time before you end up in a ditch. I stand by my statement. The system is _never_ trustworthy enough to take your eyes off the road.

asdasdsddd 2y ago

What are the benchmarks that say Mercedes, BMW, and Honda have the best level 3 features.

fragmede 2y ago
Don't forget Blue Cruise from Ford.
- Klaus23 2y ago
  Blue Cruise is level 2+, not 3, and does not rely on lidar.
Klaus23 2y ago
I ignore the Chinese because it is difficult to get reliable English information. Apart from those, these are the only level 3 systems available, and level 3 is the most advanced system that private individuals can currently get their hands on. Have I missed any?
luos2 2y ago
It's not a benchmark, but there is a youtube channel (Out of Spec) which tests these systems, and I think they also say Mercedes are the best in their "Hogback challenge". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xK3NcHSH49Q&list=PLVa4b_Vn4gbBRwZoFf2rrenzUwsKU0jZk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xK3NcHSH49Q&list=PLVa4b_Vn4g... Worth checking out, many cars are very bad.
- GoToRO 2y ago
  Sponsored by Magna, probably the contractor selling them the system...

ra7 2y ago

Chinese OEMs (BYD, Xaomi, Nio) use lidar in almost all of their mid to premium segments. Also, Polestar 3.

UltraSane 2y ago
How well do they work? Camera only systems can be easily blinded by sun, fog, dirt, and snow

quonn 2y ago

Maybe they changed their mind on it in the last 10 years. I had as the source a high-ranking BMW manager as well as an Audi one who each gave a public lecture at a university with such a statement.

Klaus23 2y ago
After a bit of research, I found out that they apparently did. Obviously every manufacturer would like to be able to use only proven technologies such as cameras and radar because they are cheap. One of the early Mercedes prototypes seemingly didn't have lidar <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlgGTi4Gs50&t=79 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlgGTi4Gs50&t=79>. Since then, the consensus has been that without lidar, the systems would not meet safety standards. For example, the cars need to be able to detect fairly flat objects, such as pallets that have fallen onto the road, which are very difficult to see optically, especially in difficult lighting conditions. For this reason, and because the technology has come down in price, virtually everyone except Tesla, which is developing advanced driving systems, is using lidar. This development is nearly a decade old. It is for this reason, combined with the overwhelming amount of Musk-related nonsense, that I objected so strongly.

tordrt 2y ago

All of these are far less capable than FSD. They might have more advanced regulatory approval because they have strong limitations of when it can be used, but if you drive the same route and compare, its not even close.

Klaus23 2y ago
I doubt it. Yes, FSD is more flexible and can also drive reasonably well on city streets, but there is a reason why it is not certified for level 3 on motorways. It would most likely fail certification. With a level 3 system, I can take my eyes off the road and watch a movie. Doing that with FSD, even in the best conditions, is suicidal. Level 3 vehicles must have an extremely low failure rate. Any crash would quickly be picked up by the media. FSD is a versatile level 2 system, but at best a prototype for level 3. If we are talking about prototypes, it has to be compared to prototypes from other manufacturers like this <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uSph0asNsk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uSph0asNsk> fully autonomous system from ... 11 years ago. The reason FSD is available to the average consumer is mostly a matter of philosophy, not technology.
- bigstrat2003 2y ago
  > With a level 3 system, I can take my eyes off the road and watch a movie. Doing that with FSD, even in the best conditions, is suicidal. That is hyperbole at best. I've test driven a Tesla with FSD and it worked flawlessly, such that I would have been perfectly safe taking my eyes off the road. Of course one test drive is not sufficient data to say one should trust the system all the time, but you are making the claim that it is never trustworthy which isn't true.
  - Klaus23 2y ago
    Oh, it's 100% trustworthy until it suddenly isn't. I have driven a number of level 2 cars on the motorway and almost all of them can do extended zero-intervention driving, but that does not make them safe. The failure rate compared to humans is still sky high. Multiple independent FSD tests have shown that you need to take over several times an hour to avoid dangerous or illegal situations <https://electrek.co/2024/09/26/tesla-full-self-driving-third-party-testing-13-miles-between-interventions/ https://electrek.co/2024/09/26/tesla-full-self-driving-third...>. The number will be lower on a motorway and you will sometimes have time to correct even if you are not looking, but the number of failures is still significant. If you take your eyes off the road, it is only a matter of time before you end up in a ditch. I stand by my statement. The system is _never_ trustworthy enough to take your eyes off the road.