4 ms·

Well my first question was going to be how are they enforcing a recall when (to my knowledge) it was illegal to sell in the first place. But apparently Califor

Well my first question was going to be how are they enforcing a recall when (to my knowledge) it was illegal to sell in the first place. But apparently California is one of the states where it is legal... why?!?

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
lupusreal 2y ago
Raw milk is like tap water without fluoride. In the context of America people talk like it's an affront to civilization itself, yet in much (not all) of Europe its available with various restrictions and regulations. Edit for factual context: In the 19th century before the advent of pasteurization and refrigeration, raw milk used to kill lots of kids. But raw milk in America wasn't banned in America until 1987 and 1991 in Canada. Refrigeration made raw milk mostly safe (albeit still gross, IMHO) and most consumers chose pasteurized milk anyway without the government forcing them to. People who think raw milk should obviously be banned like to talk about the Victorian era but not the (far more relevant) 1980s.
- glaucon 2y ago
  And, for the purposes of liquid milk, those restrictions are pretty tight [1] . In most countries there are a _very_ small number of licensed suppliers and raw milk may not be sold in conventional distribution networks. Raw milk is used by the French for some cheeses but I'm not sure about liquid milk. With respect to cheese, those made in France with raw milk are, according to wikipedia, "the major source of staphylococcal food poisoning". I mention this not because I'm sure that raw milk is always bad in all circumstances, I don't know enough to say, but to point out that the degree to which it's available within EU+UK is really quite limited. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raw_milk#Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raw_milk#Europe
  - lupusreal 2y ago
    > In most countries there are a _very_ small number of licensed suppliers and raw milk may not be sold in conventional distribution networks. So it is also in the American states which permit it. It's a very niche product which is subject to numerous regulations, in some states harsher than others. Generally it's not allowed to be sold in normal stores, you have to go to farms or special dairy stores to get it, state agencies regularly test it (hence this recall), etc.
- 123yawaworht456 2y ago
  >albeit still gross, IMHO are raw fruits/vegetables yucky to you too?
  - andybak 2y ago
    Why do you make that comparison? It seems absurd to me.
    - 123yawaworht456 2y ago
      pasteurization is just a heat treatment to remove bacteria. it isn't some fancy filtering process to remove the yucky bits. fruits and vegetables are covered in bacteria too.
      - Ferret7446 2y ago
        Fruits and vegetables are not liquid. And uncooked vegetables are indeed a large source of food borne illness. Rare steak is fine, rare chicken is not. Your analogy is really bad.
        123yawaworht456 2y ago
        >Fruits and vegetables are not liquid. and that is relevant how? >And uncooked vegetables are indeed a large source of food borne illness. so they are yucky too, after all? >Rare steak is fine, rare chicken is not. and that is relevant how? >Your analogy is really bad. thank you for your valuable input
        consteval 2y ago
        > and that is relevant how? Because it demonstrates some raw things are fine, and some raw things kill you? Like... duh? I mean what are you really arguing here? We eat some raw stuff so that means anything raw, including milk, is perfectly safe to drink? Just on it's surface that's such an absurd argument that I honestly doubt any human beings on Earth believe that. We're all well aware many raw substances are dangerous.
cwbrandsma 2y ago
it is highly regulated, but legal in some states. The inspection process for the dairies is pretty intense as well. I would not buy it to drink, but I have used it to make some really good yogurt (and I pasteurized the milk myself).
KittenInABox 2y ago
There is a consistent movement that raw milk is healthier for you than pasteurized milk, in the influence sphere of Wellness(tm).
bigstrat2003 2y ago
Because free adults should be allowed to choose whether or not they want their milk pasteurized. Obviously it needs to be labeled so people can make an informed decision, but otherwise there's no problem.
- dmkolobov 2y ago
  Free adults make decisions for children, and there is a long precedent( imo well justified ) of regulating decisions wrt to children: see vaccinations and mandatory schooling.
  - lupusreal 2y ago
    After the introduction of pasteurization, almost all adults freely chose pasteurized milk for their kids, without needing a law to force their hand. If anything, the federal government trying to ban it has only made it more popular than it was before.
    - consteval 2y ago
      No, it was made more popular because of new technologies - the internet. The decentralization of information meant that idiots could be pastors. It's not just raw milk - we're seeing this populist phenomena with everything. Anti-vax, moon landing is fake, QAnon, flat earth, crystals, sacred geometry, and on and on. You tell people "The Establishment" serves one principal that's bad, but THEY serve an opposite principal, and you can get people to believe just about anything. There's a whole culture and subsection of society who believes things purely because they think it's contrary to what "The Establishment" wants them to think. They reject anything with evidence or backed by institutions - that means medicine, food, policy. This new-wave populism is fueled by our new communication technologies.
      - lupusreal 2y ago
        "The internet" is just a network. What did they say on the internet? "Raw milk is so good, our evil lying disreputable government doesn't want us to have it."

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

lupusreal 2y ago

Raw milk is like tap water without fluoride. In the context of America people talk like it's an affront to civilization itself, yet in much (not all) of Europe its available with various restrictions and regulations. Edit for factual context: In the 19th century before the advent of pasteurization and refrigeration, raw milk used to kill lots of kids. But raw milk in America wasn't banned in America until 1987 and 1991 in Canada. Refrigeration made raw milk mostly safe (albeit still gross, IMHO) and most consumers chose pasteurized milk anyway without the government forcing them to. People who think raw milk should obviously be banned like to talk about the Victorian era but not the (far more relevant) 1980s.

glaucon 2y ago
And, for the purposes of liquid milk, those restrictions are pretty tight [1] . In most countries there are a _very_ small number of licensed suppliers and raw milk may not be sold in conventional distribution networks. Raw milk is used by the French for some cheeses but I'm not sure about liquid milk. With respect to cheese, those made in France with raw milk are, according to wikipedia, "the major source of staphylococcal food poisoning". I mention this not because I'm sure that raw milk is always bad in all circumstances, I don't know enough to say, but to point out that the degree to which it's available within EU+UK is really quite limited. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raw_milk#Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raw_milk#Europe
- lupusreal 2y ago
  > In most countries there are a _very_ small number of licensed suppliers and raw milk may not be sold in conventional distribution networks. So it is also in the American states which permit it. It's a very niche product which is subject to numerous regulations, in some states harsher than others. Generally it's not allowed to be sold in normal stores, you have to go to farms or special dairy stores to get it, state agencies regularly test it (hence this recall), etc.
123yawaworht456 2y ago
>albeit still gross, IMHO are raw fruits/vegetables yucky to you too?
- andybak 2y ago
  Why do you make that comparison? It seems absurd to me.
  - 123yawaworht456 2y ago
    pasteurization is just a heat treatment to remove bacteria. it isn't some fancy filtering process to remove the yucky bits. fruits and vegetables are covered in bacteria too.
    - Ferret7446 2y ago
      Fruits and vegetables are not liquid. And uncooked vegetables are indeed a large source of food borne illness. Rare steak is fine, rare chicken is not. Your analogy is really bad.
      - 123yawaworht456 2y ago
        >Fruits and vegetables are not liquid. and that is relevant how? >And uncooked vegetables are indeed a large source of food borne illness. so they are yucky too, after all? >Rare steak is fine, rare chicken is not. and that is relevant how? >Your analogy is really bad. thank you for your valuable input
        consteval 2y ago
        > and that is relevant how? Because it demonstrates some raw things are fine, and some raw things kill you? Like... duh? I mean what are you really arguing here? We eat some raw stuff so that means anything raw, including milk, is perfectly safe to drink? Just on it's surface that's such an absurd argument that I honestly doubt any human beings on Earth believe that. We're all well aware many raw substances are dangerous.

cwbrandsma 2y ago

it is highly regulated, but legal in some states. The inspection process for the dairies is pretty intense as well. I would not buy it to drink, but I have used it to make some really good yogurt (and I pasteurized the milk myself).

KittenInABox 2y ago

There is a consistent movement that raw milk is healthier for you than pasteurized milk, in the influence sphere of Wellness(tm).

bigstrat2003 2y ago

Because free adults should be allowed to choose whether or not they want their milk pasteurized. Obviously it needs to be labeled so people can make an informed decision, but otherwise there's no problem.

dmkolobov 2y ago
Free adults make decisions for children, and there is a long precedent( imo well justified ) of regulating decisions wrt to children: see vaccinations and mandatory schooling.
- lupusreal 2y ago
  After the introduction of pasteurization, almost all adults freely chose pasteurized milk for their kids, without needing a law to force their hand. If anything, the federal government trying to ban it has only made it more popular than it was before.
  - consteval 2y ago
    No, it was made more popular because of new technologies - the internet. The decentralization of information meant that idiots could be pastors. It's not just raw milk - we're seeing this populist phenomena with everything. Anti-vax, moon landing is fake, QAnon, flat earth, crystals, sacred geometry, and on and on. You tell people "The Establishment" serves one principal that's bad, but THEY serve an opposite principal, and you can get people to believe just about anything. There's a whole culture and subsection of society who believes things purely because they think it's contrary to what "The Establishment" wants them to think. They reject anything with evidence or backed by institutions - that means medicine, food, policy. This new-wave populism is fueled by our new communication technologies.
    - lupusreal 2y ago
      "The internet" is just a network. What did they say on the internet? "Raw milk is so good, our evil lying disreputable government doesn't want us to have it."