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In high school I met my very good friend, a young man obsessed with the military. He ended up at the Naval academy, and then an officer in the navy. To put it

In high school I met my very good friend, a young man obsessed with the military. He ended up at the Naval academy, and then an officer in the navy. To put it bluntly. The sort of young man who does this is not at all into the various social programs the military has now been implementing. Moreover, they started scrutinizing the basic, popular political beliefs of many of the recruits. Those interested in the Navy tend to be of a particular political persuasion, and even those who do not share that tend to have similar underlying belief structures. What my friend wanted to be a career ended up being the minimum required years of service. It's unfortunate. They lost a loyal, educated officer. For what? What was gained by their novel program? At the end of the day, the military is a thing that many young men are attracted to. We can debate the reasons why until the cows come home, but the military can choose to either build upon that innate attraction or pursue a different direction, and they've frankly chosen the latter. At every step of the way, they trample upon the factors that led these young men to join, and then they wonder why no one wants it anymore. From my perspective, they've achieved something that few civilizations in history have managed, which is to make the armed forces actively unattractive to vast swaths of young males.

psunavy03 2y ago
> Moreover, they started scrutinizing the basic, popular political beliefs of many of the recruits. Those interested in the Navy tend to be of a particular political persuasion, and even those who do not share that tend to have similar underlying belief structures. Yeah, completely wrong. Great article on this from one of my former flight instructors. https://jecurtis.medium.com/ship-to-shore-f0910048c451 https://jecurtis.medium.com/ship-to-shore-f0910048c451
- petsfed 2y ago
  To summarize the article, and paraphrase and editorialize, I've heard a lot of criticisms of the US Navy culture ("boat feudalism" is one of my favorites), but I don't think anyone has ever seriously accused the US Navy of being so open, egalitarian, and woke as to become even the second best navy on the planet.
jgys 2y ago
> the various social programs the military has now been implementing Social programs? You mean the policy of not discriminating based on gender or sexual preference? > they started scrutinizing the basic, popular political beliefs of many of the recruits It seems prudent to scrutinize political beliefs that might be incompatible with treating a non-cishet male colleague as an equal (or a superior, as the case may be) or regarding such colleagues with dignity and respect.
- anon291 2y ago
  > Social programs? You mean the policy of not discriminating based on gender or sexual preference? What is the point of the military?
  - Terr_ 2y ago
    They asked a rather simple question, it's weird that you seem to be dodging it. It's unlikely your good-friend was turned away because they were were ideologically-opposed to the military having any social programs for housing, or for healthcare, or for family support, or for post-service education. So again, which "social programs" were you referring to in your argument?
    - anon291 2y ago
      He wasn't turned away. He left, honorably. No one kicked him out or suggested it. He just didn't feel welcome and saw the winds changing. It really ought to be obvious, but many of the sorts of young men who join the military and who are attracted to it and would make good fighters are not into transgender troops, women in combat, or flamboyant homosexual men (they're not into flamboyant straight men either). Many of the type of troop we need are attracted to the military because it is -- historically at least -- a men's hierarchical organization. Not only has the military embraced social issues that turn men off, it also offers dual standards (physical standards are lower for women) and affirmative action when promoting (yes... it's still legal for military academies to use affirmative action... they're exempt!). We can either accept this reality and have enough people volunteer, or ignore it, and be where we're at today. This is not controversial, and honestly is irrelevant to my or yours belief system. Which is why I asked the question of the purpose of the military. It's not a jobs program. It's to hone warriors who will protect this country. Now, if the Pentagon says we need X warriors and only Y < X show up, this is a problem because the country is undefended. There are a few ways out. Either the pentagon is wrong in its estimates of how many troops are necessary for national security, or, by embracing these novel social issues, the military has eroded national safety, thus negating the very purpose of its existence.
Terr_ 2y ago
> the various social programs [...] basic, popular political beliefs [...] a particular political persuasion [...] similar underlying belief structures [...] their novel program [...] the factors that led these young men to join There's a lot vague references here to things that are never revealed. I don't think I'm alone in perceiving it as an author deliberately hiding guilty details which would devastate the "reasonableness" of their complaint. To illustrate the idea: Person A: "The state cannot criminalize healthy joint exercises, natural bodily functions, and freedom of expression! This is an outrage to be condemned by every free-thinking man!" Person B: "For the last time sir, you can not fastball-pitch your own feces at people in line for the movie you dislike."
glitchc 2y ago
Is it just the social programs that are at fault? The comforts of modern life may be equally culpable here. Often young men would turn to the military to get out of hostile domestic situations (lack of space, food, opportunities). The comparative wage gap relative to the private sector is also a factor. This was previously masked due to lack of information but the internet makes it trivial to gauge the disparity.
LostThrowAway12 2y ago
Can't even be a racist homophobic misogynist officer in the NAVY! What's the world coming to!
tokioyoyo 2y ago
> the military is a thing that many young men are attracted to I have high doubts about this in modern days. Military used to get some recruits, then keep a good chunk of them because of sunk cost fallacy once you realize the hardships. Nowadays, you can see the sacrifices you have to make in your life by just googling it, and just not signing up for military. It's just less "sexy and cool", even from hyper-masculine perspective.
mlinhares 2y ago
What's the nuance here? Was the person a criminal or a would be terrorist? This whole comment is weird, what "political persuasion" is here? The armed forces do not filter out people of a "particular political persuasion" unless this phrase means "person with ties to terrorist groups".
- anon291 2y ago
  In particular, his social media was scrutinized for being a Trump supporter, which like I said, is also the leanings of more than half the voting populace. He doesn't post anything really, but was notified that they were looking.
  - relaxing 2y ago
    None of what you said there is true. That’s not how these investigations work. The idea that the Navy screens out conservatives is laughable. Your friend is lying to you.
    - anon291 2y ago
      The vibe matters to recruitment. Whether it's a lie or not is frankly immaterial. People decide based on feelings, and if the Pentagon had any sense, they'd work to make sure the feelings were one of benevolence and camaraderie. You know... if there were no recruiting crisis, your criticism would be fine, but since there is a recruiting crisis, maybe it would behoove those in power to listen.
      - mlinhares 2y ago
        I think your friend did something and doesn't want to talk about it. Even the armed forces folks that were in January 6th got a slap alone. I've friends in the armed forces and if there's one thing they said no one cares about is your politics, specially at recruiting, they just want more bodies, as long as you don't have a swastika tattooed or show up with a KKK hood you're going to get in.

psunavy03 2y ago

> Moreover, they started scrutinizing the basic, popular political beliefs of many of the recruits. Those interested in the Navy tend to be of a particular political persuasion, and even those who do not share that tend to have similar underlying belief structures. Yeah, completely wrong. Great article on this from one of my former flight instructors. https://jecurtis.medium.com/ship-to-shore-f0910048c451 https://jecurtis.medium.com/ship-to-shore-f0910048c451

petsfed 2y ago
To summarize the article, and paraphrase and editorialize, I've heard a lot of criticisms of the US Navy culture ("boat feudalism" is one of my favorites), but I don't think anyone has ever seriously accused the US Navy of being so open, egalitarian, and woke as to become even the second best navy on the planet.

jgys 2y ago

> the various social programs the military has now been implementing Social programs? You mean the policy of not discriminating based on gender or sexual preference? > they started scrutinizing the basic, popular political beliefs of many of the recruits It seems prudent to scrutinize political beliefs that might be incompatible with treating a non-cishet male colleague as an equal (or a superior, as the case may be) or regarding such colleagues with dignity and respect.

anon291 2y ago
> Social programs? You mean the policy of not discriminating based on gender or sexual preference? What is the point of the military?
- Terr_ 2y ago
  They asked a rather simple question, it's weird that you seem to be dodging it. It's unlikely your good-friend was turned away because they were were ideologically-opposed to the military having any social programs for housing, or for healthcare, or for family support, or for post-service education. So again, which "social programs" were you referring to in your argument?
  - anon291 2y ago
    He wasn't turned away. He left, honorably. No one kicked him out or suggested it. He just didn't feel welcome and saw the winds changing. It really ought to be obvious, but many of the sorts of young men who join the military and who are attracted to it and would make good fighters are not into transgender troops, women in combat, or flamboyant homosexual men (they're not into flamboyant straight men either). Many of the type of troop we need are attracted to the military because it is -- historically at least -- a men's hierarchical organization. Not only has the military embraced social issues that turn men off, it also offers dual standards (physical standards are lower for women) and affirmative action when promoting (yes... it's still legal for military academies to use affirmative action... they're exempt!). We can either accept this reality and have enough people volunteer, or ignore it, and be where we're at today. This is not controversial, and honestly is irrelevant to my or yours belief system. Which is why I asked the question of the purpose of the military. It's not a jobs program. It's to hone warriors who will protect this country. Now, if the Pentagon says we need X warriors and only Y < X show up, this is a problem because the country is undefended. There are a few ways out. Either the pentagon is wrong in its estimates of how many troops are necessary for national security, or, by embracing these novel social issues, the military has eroded national safety, thus negating the very purpose of its existence.

Terr_ 2y ago

> the various social programs [...] basic, popular political beliefs [...] a particular political persuasion [...] similar underlying belief structures [...] their novel program [...] the factors that led these young men to join There's a lot vague references here to things that are never revealed. I don't think I'm alone in perceiving it as an author deliberately hiding guilty details which would devastate the "reasonableness" of their complaint. To illustrate the idea: Person A: "The state cannot criminalize healthy joint exercises, natural bodily functions, and freedom of expression! This is an outrage to be condemned by every free-thinking man!" Person B: "For the last time sir, you can not fastball-pitch your own feces at people in line for the movie you dislike."

glitchc 2y ago

Is it just the social programs that are at fault? The comforts of modern life may be equally culpable here. Often young men would turn to the military to get out of hostile domestic situations (lack of space, food, opportunities). The comparative wage gap relative to the private sector is also a factor. This was previously masked due to lack of information but the internet makes it trivial to gauge the disparity.

LostThrowAway12 2y ago

Can't even be a racist homophobic misogynist officer in the NAVY! What's the world coming to!

tokioyoyo 2y ago

> the military is a thing that many young men are attracted to I have high doubts about this in modern days. Military used to get some recruits, then keep a good chunk of them because of sunk cost fallacy once you realize the hardships. Nowadays, you can see the sacrifices you have to make in your life by just googling it, and just not signing up for military. It's just less "sexy and cool", even from hyper-masculine perspective.

mlinhares 2y ago

What's the nuance here? Was the person a criminal or a would be terrorist? This whole comment is weird, what "political persuasion" is here? The armed forces do not filter out people of a "particular political persuasion" unless this phrase means "person with ties to terrorist groups".

anon291 2y ago
In particular, his social media was scrutinized for being a Trump supporter, which like I said, is also the leanings of more than half the voting populace. He doesn't post anything really, but was notified that they were looking.
- relaxing 2y ago
  None of what you said there is true. That’s not how these investigations work. The idea that the Navy screens out conservatives is laughable. Your friend is lying to you.
  - anon291 2y ago
    The vibe matters to recruitment. Whether it's a lie or not is frankly immaterial. People decide based on feelings, and if the Pentagon had any sense, they'd work to make sure the feelings were one of benevolence and camaraderie. You know... if there were no recruiting crisis, your criticism would be fine, but since there is a recruiting crisis, maybe it would behoove those in power to listen.
    - mlinhares 2y ago
      I think your friend did something and doesn't want to talk about it. Even the armed forces folks that were in January 6th got a slap alone. I've friends in the armed forces and if there's one thing they said no one cares about is your politics, specially at recruiting, they just want more bodies, as long as you don't have a swastika tattooed or show up with a KKK hood you're going to get in.