6 ms·

Oh no! Herb Sutter is leaving Microsoft?! That does not bode well for Microsoft. At least from the outside perspective it looks like he was the adult in the ro

by fefe23 2y ago

Oh no! Herb Sutter is leaving Microsoft?! That does not bode well for Microsoft. At least from the outside perspective it looks like he was the adult in the room, the driving force behind standards adoption and even trying to steer C++-the-language towards a better vision of the future. If he is gone, MSVC will again be the unloved bastard child it has long been before Herb's efforts started to pay off. This is very disheartening news. I'm happy he held out for this long even though he was being stonewalled every step of the way, like when Microsoft proposed std::span and it was adopted but minus the range checking (which was the whole point of std::span). Now he has been pushing for a C++ preprocessor. Consider how desperate you have to be to even consider that as a potential solution for naysayers blocking your every move.

ghosty141 2y ago
Wait, why does std::span not do the range checking? We ran into that exact thing at work and were really confused why the hell it doesn't do it currently.
- steveklabnik 2y ago
  I believe this is because [] doesn’t do checking normally, so this is seen as a consistency. I am not 100% sure, but I do remember it being a contentious decision. .at() is added in C++26.
bluGill 2y ago
> Now he has been pushing for a C++ preprocessor. He has been showing it, but not pushing it. the difference is subtle but important. He is showing a lot of "what ifs" trying them, and pushing the useful ones back into the language. Reflection is on track for C++26 in large part because he inspired a lot of people with his metaclasses talk (a long time ago, but doing things right takes time)
chrsig 2y ago
It looks like he's staying on the committee and what not, just changing his day job. That's actually one of the benefits of having a committee & iso standardization process -- things aren't so reliant on a single engineer staying employed at a single company. I'm sure it's never as clean a situation as anyone would like, but hey, world is a rough place sometimes.
tux3 2y ago
The rumor that has been widely circulating is that the MSVC backend is being reused as a code generator for the Rust compiler (because nobody really understands PDBs anymore, not even Microsoft, and especially LLVM doesn't. So rustc could be a MSVC frontend instead to reuse all the existing arcane logic.) MSVC will continue to be used for many years, and especially the backend might see renewed effort. But I don't know about the C++ frontend specifically, I've seen complaints about more and more bugs on the cpp subreddit. It's possible MS will be investing a little less in C++.
- pjmlp 2y ago
  Disregarding the rumor, it is quite public information that on Azure side, C and C++ are now only allowed for existing code bases, or scenarios where nothing else is available. Meanwhile on Windows side, it was made officially at Ignite that a similar decision is now to be followed upon Windows as well. Here the official stuff, so whatever happens to MSVC is secondary, https://azure.microsoft.com/fr-fr/blog/microsoft-azure-security-evolution-embrace-secure-multitenancy-confidential-compute-and-rust/ https://azure.microsoft.com/fr-fr/blog/microsoft-azure-secur... https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2024/11/19/windows-security-and-resiliency-protecting-your-business/ https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2024/11/19/windo...
  - nitwit005 2y ago
    They've made statements like that for a long time now. But they've never escaped using C++ when performance matters. The game dev roles very clearly ask for C++, for example. Rather, it seems that as computers have gotten faster, there's been more places where safety is preferable to performance.
    - pjmlp 2y ago
      The proof is on the pudding, how performance critical do you consider Pluton firmware, network cards firmware supporting Azure workloads? Two examples of stuff publicly rewritten into Rust. Games are special that isn't what Windows security cares about in first instance, when TinyGlade is the first ever commercial success using Rust. Yet most games are done with Unreal and Unity, and yes there is lots of C++ there, but is mostly Blueprints, Verse, C# on top, that large majority of studios reach for.

by fefe23 2y ago

ghosty141 2y ago

Wait, why does std::span not do the range checking? We ran into that exact thing at work and were really confused why the hell it doesn't do it currently.

steveklabnik 2y ago
I believe this is because [] doesn’t do checking normally, so this is seen as a consistency. I am not 100% sure, but I do remember it being a contentious decision. .at() is added in C++26.

bluGill 2y ago

> Now he has been pushing for a C++ preprocessor. He has been showing it, but not pushing it. the difference is subtle but important. He is showing a lot of "what ifs" trying them, and pushing the useful ones back into the language. Reflection is on track for C++26 in large part because he inspired a lot of people with his metaclasses talk (a long time ago, but doing things right takes time)

chrsig 2y ago

It looks like he's staying on the committee and what not, just changing his day job. That's actually one of the benefits of having a committee & iso standardization process -- things aren't so reliant on a single engineer staying employed at a single company. I'm sure it's never as clean a situation as anyone would like, but hey, world is a rough place sometimes.

tux3 2y ago

The rumor that has been widely circulating is that the MSVC backend is being reused as a code generator for the Rust compiler (because nobody really understands PDBs anymore, not even Microsoft, and especially LLVM doesn't. So rustc could be a MSVC frontend instead to reuse all the existing arcane logic.) MSVC will continue to be used for many years, and especially the backend might see renewed effort. But I don't know about the C++ frontend specifically, I've seen complaints about more and more bugs on the cpp subreddit. It's possible MS will be investing a little less in C++.

pjmlp 2y ago
Disregarding the rumor, it is quite public information that on Azure side, C and C++ are now only allowed for existing code bases, or scenarios where nothing else is available. Meanwhile on Windows side, it was made officially at Ignite that a similar decision is now to be followed upon Windows as well. Here the official stuff, so whatever happens to MSVC is secondary, https://azure.microsoft.com/fr-fr/blog/microsoft-azure-security-evolution-embrace-secure-multitenancy-confidential-compute-and-rust/ https://azure.microsoft.com/fr-fr/blog/microsoft-azure-secur... https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2024/11/19/windows-security-and-resiliency-protecting-your-business/ https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2024/11/19/windo...
- nitwit005 2y ago
  They've made statements like that for a long time now. But they've never escaped using C++ when performance matters. The game dev roles very clearly ask for C++, for example. Rather, it seems that as computers have gotten faster, there's been more places where safety is preferable to performance.
  - pjmlp 2y ago
    The proof is on the pudding, how performance critical do you consider Pluton firmware, network cards firmware supporting Azure workloads? Two examples of stuff publicly rewritten into Rust. Games are special that isn't what Windows security cares about in first instance, when TinyGlade is the first ever commercial success using Rust. Yet most games are done with Unreal and Unity, and yes there is lots of C++ there, but is mostly Blueprints, Verse, C# on top, that large majority of studios reach for.