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You know Snow Crash was a dystopia, right? He wasn't suggesting we should actually do this , he was pointing out the dire consequences of heading in the directi

You know Snow Crash was a dystopia, right? He wasn't suggesting we should actually do this , he was pointing out the dire consequences of heading in the direction we were/are travelling. Diamond Age was presented as less of a dystopia, all those Vickies living in nice places. But the early part of Nell's story is bleak af. Is this really what we want for our future? This is the Torment Nexus that we were supposed to not be building. It's kinda worrying that serious people are trying to build it.

johnny22 2y ago
> It's kinda worrying that serious people are trying to build it. Yeah it's really scary to me that people are taking all this fiction with bad lessons and trying to make it happen. It feels like they wanna make even more explicit panopticon and call it the eye of sauron. Reminds me of: https://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2023/11/dont-create-the-torment-nexus.html https://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2023/11/dont-cr...
- marcus_holmes 2y ago
  Thanks for the link to The Torment Nexus talk :) I forgot who came up with that
big-green-man 2y ago
I didn't get that reading from it at all, just that it was the state of the world in the story and it had it's benefits and downsides like anything else. It wasn't so much a dystopia than a prediction of where our networking, compute and cryptography technology would take the international power structure. I think a part of the depiction was that power structures and hierarchies are emergent and are not symptoms of a dysfunctional social system, and that no matter what the structure of a society is, hierarchies form and injustice still occurs. The reality I want for humanity is one where we aren't born partially enslaved, which almost all human beings are currently. A world of power structures, but where people can choose their tribe, where we aren't subject to the dictates of others as a consequence of the coordinates where we are born, would be a much more free world.
- marcus_holmes 2y ago
  The protagonists (literally Protagonist in Snow Crash) got to choose because they're connected, wealthy individuals with relevant skills. It's a very privileged viewpoint. Nell's folks did not get to choose. The implicit dystopia is that of Nell's folks, who don't have skills, don't have connections, and have no way of getting out of their shitty situation. The flip side of flexible nationality is if you're unwanted. Can nations choose to eject natural-born citizens who will incur too much medical cost during their lives? Or people who don't fit the nation's norms of sexuality, gender identity, religion, whatever? Can you suddenly find yourself ejected from your nation because an algorithm detects something in your profile?
  - cgriswald 2y ago
    Nations can and have done all those things. Possibly an argument can be made that forced nationality based on geography tends to make those things less likely than they are in Stephenson’s fictional world.
- em-bee 2y ago
  but this doesn't work both ways. in order to be able to freely choose which group to join, no group must be allowed to reject me. otherwise we will end up with a numer of people that are rejected everywhere. it most not be allowed to remove people from a group, but, if they violate rules they must be given a chance to rehabilitate themselves. we already have to many people who can't find a group where they are being accepted the way they are, and such a system would only increase that number. there has to be a balance between both. certain rules depend on the location where i am, and other rules may depend on the culture, and yet again others depend on the family. i am absolutely for the abolishment of nation states, but we can't abolish local rules. we could reduce some of them though.
  - big-green-man 2y ago
    > in order to be able to freely choose which group to join, no group must be allowed to reject me. That's not how free association works. Both the individual and the group, each according to their own criteria, determine if they want to associate with one another. The same point applies to many of your other arguments. I don't really think it would increase the number of people who are left behind. There are many left behind people all over the world who on paper have states they belong to, but which the rules of those states leave them cut out of any real participation. If they could participate in whatever groups they currently belong to, with full sovereignty rather than under a state attempting to destroy these groups and subsume them, I think those people would be better off. And, for those few that are unwanted by anyone, much fewer than there are now in a state dominated environment, they can always choose to associate with one another. There will be rules based on location no matter what you do. You don't need a state for that. People live in places, and they have customs and etiquette and rules of decorum. You probably won't be able to walk around naked in Kabul no matter whether there's a state or not.

johnny22 2y ago

> It's kinda worrying that serious people are trying to build it. Yeah it's really scary to me that people are taking all this fiction with bad lessons and trying to make it happen. It feels like they wanna make even more explicit panopticon and call it the eye of sauron. Reminds me of: https://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2023/11/dont-create-the-torment-nexus.html https://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2023/11/dont-cr...

marcus_holmes 2y ago
Thanks for the link to The Torment Nexus talk :) I forgot who came up with that

big-green-man 2y ago

I didn't get that reading from it at all, just that it was the state of the world in the story and it had it's benefits and downsides like anything else. It wasn't so much a dystopia than a prediction of where our networking, compute and cryptography technology would take the international power structure. I think a part of the depiction was that power structures and hierarchies are emergent and are not symptoms of a dysfunctional social system, and that no matter what the structure of a society is, hierarchies form and injustice still occurs. The reality I want for humanity is one where we aren't born partially enslaved, which almost all human beings are currently. A world of power structures, but where people can choose their tribe, where we aren't subject to the dictates of others as a consequence of the coordinates where we are born, would be a much more free world.

marcus_holmes 2y ago
The protagonists (literally Protagonist in Snow Crash) got to choose because they're connected, wealthy individuals with relevant skills. It's a very privileged viewpoint. Nell's folks did not get to choose. The implicit dystopia is that of Nell's folks, who don't have skills, don't have connections, and have no way of getting out of their shitty situation. The flip side of flexible nationality is if you're unwanted. Can nations choose to eject natural-born citizens who will incur too much medical cost during their lives? Or people who don't fit the nation's norms of sexuality, gender identity, religion, whatever? Can you suddenly find yourself ejected from your nation because an algorithm detects something in your profile?
- cgriswald 2y ago
  Nations can and have done all those things. Possibly an argument can be made that forced nationality based on geography tends to make those things less likely than they are in Stephenson’s fictional world.
em-bee 2y ago
but this doesn't work both ways. in order to be able to freely choose which group to join, no group must be allowed to reject me. otherwise we will end up with a numer of people that are rejected everywhere. it most not be allowed to remove people from a group, but, if they violate rules they must be given a chance to rehabilitate themselves. we already have to many people who can't find a group where they are being accepted the way they are, and such a system would only increase that number. there has to be a balance between both. certain rules depend on the location where i am, and other rules may depend on the culture, and yet again others depend on the family. i am absolutely for the abolishment of nation states, but we can't abolish local rules. we could reduce some of them though.
- big-green-man 2y ago
  > in order to be able to freely choose which group to join, no group must be allowed to reject me. That's not how free association works. Both the individual and the group, each according to their own criteria, determine if they want to associate with one another. The same point applies to many of your other arguments. I don't really think it would increase the number of people who are left behind. There are many left behind people all over the world who on paper have states they belong to, but which the rules of those states leave them cut out of any real participation. If they could participate in whatever groups they currently belong to, with full sovereignty rather than under a state attempting to destroy these groups and subsume them, I think those people would be better off. And, for those few that are unwanted by anyone, much fewer than there are now in a state dominated environment, they can always choose to associate with one another. There will be rules based on location no matter what you do. You don't need a state for that. People live in places, and they have customs and etiquette and rules of decorum. You probably won't be able to walk around naked in Kabul no matter whether there's a state or not.