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> it seems they've latched on to something that works better than even democracy and capitalism Wouldn’t this just be plain old fashioned authoritarianism? Ame

> it seems they've latched on to something that works better than even democracy and capitalism Wouldn’t this just be plain old fashioned authoritarianism? America can latch on to this too, and we might based on how the Trump admin turns out.

foxglacier 2y ago
No. One required component is plain old fashioned oversupply of labor. America doesn't have that because all employable people are too rich. China also has an oversupply of skilled labor like engineers, in part because the threat of poverty is a strong motivator to get rich. America also lacks that which you can see in capable young people doing arts degrees with no thought to their future income because it doesn't matter - they'll still live comfortably even on minimum wage.
- meiraleal 2y ago
  There is an estimation of 11-30 million undocumented immigrants in the US. The biggest difference is that in the US they are working on fast food jobs, house cleaning, babysitting. Different priorities.
- rangestransform 2y ago
  That’s an easy enough problem to solve if we had the appetite to solve it, why couldn’t we legitimize the roles illegal immigrants currently do right now with a Singapore style migrant worker program?
  - throwaway2037 2y ago
    To be clear, I think that there is an existing, legal migrant worker programme. They do most of the non-automated farm work in Central Valley California. Also, the Singapore system is a bit ugly if you look closely. I hope the US can do better.
  - aurareturn 2y ago
    Probably because the average Chinese is far more skilled than your average illegal immigrant. It's not just raw labor force. It's capable engineers, designers, architects, etc. How is illegal immigration going to solve this?
    - meiraleal 2y ago
      The amount of skilled people wanting to migrate to the US is almost infinite (unfortunately). If the US decided to open 20million green card spots, they would be filled.
      - aurareturn 2y ago
        If you bring in 20 million skilled workers, you'd have to bring in 200 million unskilled workers to support them.
- throwaway2037 2y ago
  > they'll still live comfortably even on minimum wage. You made a few good points until this one. No one in the US is living comfortably on minimum wage.
  - foxglacier 2y ago
    Comfortable enough to not be worth undergoing extreme pressure to succeed like people do in China and India. Even a skilled tradesman is a highly paid career in America but it's poverty in China.
  - aurareturn 2y ago
    It's relative. Relative to the rest of the world (and China), you can still live comfortably on minimum wage.
    - rob74 2y ago
      You can still live comfortably on US minimum wage if your cost of living is like in China?
      - foxglacier 2y ago
        Not just cost of living is lower, but standard of living is too. I know people in China who had full-time jobs but would recover meat from other people's rubbish to eat, or who lived illegally in a garage. That's homeless-level lifestyle for America and doesn't require any job at all.
      - meiraleal 2y ago
        What question is this? With a US minimum wage with China CoL you are rich.
        throwaway2037 2y ago
        Definitely not in the major cities, like Beijing, Tianjin, Shanghai, and Guangzhou.
- Epa095 2y ago
  It's not that life on minimal wage is comfortable, it's that we have been told for a generation now that 'just get a college degree and it will be fine'. Happily amplified by for-profit education investing a lot of money lying to young people (ads). Ask your local waiter with a college degree if they would have studied something else if they got the chance. My experience is that many would.
  - meiraleal 2y ago
    > Ask your local waiter with a college degree if they would have studied something else if they got the chance. My experience is that many would. The problem of bad choices is orthogonal to the problem you are describing.
    - latentcall 2y ago
      In high school the administration specifically stated that just going to college was good enough. They encouraged people to get English, philosophy, history degrees if that’s what they wanted. If you’re 17 and like history class it seems like a logical next step. They didn’t tell you you won’t be able to find work.
      - meiraleal 2y ago
        still a bad choice. The US is not USSR, one can choose what they want to study or even don't study at all.
        latentcall 2y ago
        Sure, but it’s a choice heavily influenced by authority figures in your life. But yes strictly binary it is a choice. Thankfully the world is more nuanced.
    - Epa095 2y ago
      My point is that it's an information problem, leading to (more) bad choices. OPs claim that people live happily enough on minimum wage is actually another example, hopefully no 17 year old reads it and thinks 'ohh so I can live comfortable on minimum wage'. If there is 17 year old reading this thread then I hope to be a counterweight: 'HEY 17 YEAR OLD! Get a sellable skill! English literature is probably not enough! Working for minimum wage sucks!'
DiogenesKynikos 2y ago
If the Trump administration (or the Biden administration) tried to enact an industrial policy like China, I think they would fail. It's not easy, and plenty of authoritarian governments fail at it.

foxglacier 2y ago

No. One required component is plain old fashioned oversupply of labor. America doesn't have that because all employable people are too rich. China also has an oversupply of skilled labor like engineers, in part because the threat of poverty is a strong motivator to get rich. America also lacks that which you can see in capable young people doing arts degrees with no thought to their future income because it doesn't matter - they'll still live comfortably even on minimum wage.

meiraleal 2y ago
There is an estimation of 11-30 million undocumented immigrants in the US. The biggest difference is that in the US they are working on fast food jobs, house cleaning, babysitting. Different priorities.
rangestransform 2y ago
That’s an easy enough problem to solve if we had the appetite to solve it, why couldn’t we legitimize the roles illegal immigrants currently do right now with a Singapore style migrant worker program?
- throwaway2037 2y ago
  To be clear, I think that there is an existing, legal migrant worker programme. They do most of the non-automated farm work in Central Valley California. Also, the Singapore system is a bit ugly if you look closely. I hope the US can do better.
- aurareturn 2y ago
  Probably because the average Chinese is far more skilled than your average illegal immigrant. It's not just raw labor force. It's capable engineers, designers, architects, etc. How is illegal immigration going to solve this?
  - meiraleal 2y ago
    The amount of skilled people wanting to migrate to the US is almost infinite (unfortunately). If the US decided to open 20million green card spots, they would be filled.
    - aurareturn 2y ago
      If you bring in 20 million skilled workers, you'd have to bring in 200 million unskilled workers to support them.
throwaway2037 2y ago
> they'll still live comfortably even on minimum wage. You made a few good points until this one. No one in the US is living comfortably on minimum wage.
- foxglacier 2y ago
  Comfortable enough to not be worth undergoing extreme pressure to succeed like people do in China and India. Even a skilled tradesman is a highly paid career in America but it's poverty in China.
- aurareturn 2y ago
  It's relative. Relative to the rest of the world (and China), you can still live comfortably on minimum wage.
  - rob74 2y ago
    You can still live comfortably on US minimum wage if your cost of living is like in China?
    - foxglacier 2y ago
      Not just cost of living is lower, but standard of living is too. I know people in China who had full-time jobs but would recover meat from other people's rubbish to eat, or who lived illegally in a garage. That's homeless-level lifestyle for America and doesn't require any job at all.
    - meiraleal 2y ago
      What question is this? With a US minimum wage with China CoL you are rich.
      - throwaway2037 2y ago
        Definitely not in the major cities, like Beijing, Tianjin, Shanghai, and Guangzhou.
Epa095 2y ago
It's not that life on minimal wage is comfortable, it's that we have been told for a generation now that 'just get a college degree and it will be fine'. Happily amplified by for-profit education investing a lot of money lying to young people (ads). Ask your local waiter with a college degree if they would have studied something else if they got the chance. My experience is that many would.
- meiraleal 2y ago
  > Ask your local waiter with a college degree if they would have studied something else if they got the chance. My experience is that many would. The problem of bad choices is orthogonal to the problem you are describing.
  - latentcall 2y ago
    In high school the administration specifically stated that just going to college was good enough. They encouraged people to get English, philosophy, history degrees if that’s what they wanted. If you’re 17 and like history class it seems like a logical next step. They didn’t tell you you won’t be able to find work.
    - meiraleal 2y ago
      still a bad choice. The US is not USSR, one can choose what they want to study or even don't study at all.
      - latentcall 2y ago
        Sure, but it’s a choice heavily influenced by authority figures in your life. But yes strictly binary it is a choice. Thankfully the world is more nuanced.
  - Epa095 2y ago
    My point is that it's an information problem, leading to (more) bad choices. OPs claim that people live happily enough on minimum wage is actually another example, hopefully no 17 year old reads it and thinks 'ohh so I can live comfortable on minimum wage'. If there is 17 year old reading this thread then I hope to be a counterweight: 'HEY 17 YEAR OLD! Get a sellable skill! English literature is probably not enough! Working for minimum wage sucks!'

DiogenesKynikos 2y ago

If the Trump administration (or the Biden administration) tried to enact an industrial policy like China, I think they would fail. It's not easy, and plenty of authoritarian governments fail at it.