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I was shocked to see this program arrive in my local airport. I opt out every time, but the horrifying thing is that almost everyone simply complies with whatev

I was shocked to see this program arrive in my local airport. I opt out every time, but the horrifying thing is that almost everyone simply complies with whatever is asked of them. The TSA agents use phrasing that make it seem like you are supposed to go through the facial recognition process and don’t have a choice. Yes, there are tiny signs scattered around that say you can opt out. But when the officer says “step in front of the camera”, most people comply with what seems like orders from a legal authority.

bananapub 2y ago
Americans can opt out.
- kareemm 2y ago
  Nope - Canadian here, opted out in Austin.
  - swat535 2y ago
    Unless you are a Canadian born in an undesirable country: Iran, Afghanistan, Syria, .. etc. It doesn't matter if you are citizen and have a passport, you will always be racially profiled when crossing the US unfortunately and I bet the experience will be much worse under the new Administration.
- monksy 2y ago
  You're talking about the border exit. We're talking about security after checkin.
corytheboyd 2y ago
People just want to get through an incredibly annoying experience as fast as possible, and they know the people behind them want this too. Doesn’t excuse the bullshit, but it’s much less of a dramatic “sheep bowing to authority” than made out to be here.
- BadHumans 2y ago
  This is it. I don't think I've opted out of it. I know I can but I know the agent is going to make a big deal of it and the line is already long for everyone behind me so whatever lets just get through it.
  - jkestner 2y ago
    Nah. In my experience when you opt out, they say “Okay,” scan your ID the same way they’ve been doing for 20 years, and you get through in the same time. If they want to entice us with convenience, the facial recognition should allow you to just stroll through without talking to anyone.
    - BadHumans 2y ago
      I'll do it next time I'm flying to see what happens.
snakeyjake 2y ago
Generally speaking you present ID to pass through security. The facial recognition is based on the biometric data collected when you got your ID, the ID you presented to pass through security. The ID with your name, address, date of birth, and uniquely identifying number on it. The ID which is associated with your boarding pass. The ID they scan (or they scan the boarding pass which is associated with your ID) prior to letting you through security. Using facial recognition changes nothing, absolutely nothing, except that it reduces the amount of time spent at the checkpoint. It does not grant anyone access to any information they do not already have. It does not impede the traveler in any way. It does not change, at all, any aspect of one's privacy whatsoever. "But I don't wanna..." doesn't seem like a defensible position.
- goalieca 2y ago
  Maybe I’m old school but I despise the idea of the government tracking me as I travel. Time and time again they are caught violating privacy laws and abusing power.
  - ipython 2y ago
    Given that you already need government issued ID that matches the name printed on your ticket to travel on an airplane, wouldn’t the government already have the ability to track you, regardless of facial recognition?
    - toomuchtodo 2y ago
      Indeed, the government doesn't even need the ID, they ingest a data feed of Passenger Name Records (PNRs) from all airlines. This is why when TSA performs the automated identity proofing, comparing a photo of you to your ID, they don't require that you provide a boarding pass. Comparing an ephemeral photo taken of you to your government credential at the TSA checkpoint is a temporary formality. At some point, the government credential presentation will be unnecessary. https://www.cbp.gov/travel/clearing-cbp/passenger-name-record https://www.cbp.gov/travel/clearing-cbp/passenger-name-recor... (Control-F "What information is collected?")
mdorazio 2y ago
What do you think opting out does exactly? For the system to work they must already have your photo associated with your name and ID. And even if you opt out they’re still tracking your movement. It seems like an impotent protest so I don’t bother.
- eesmith 2y ago
  They make it opt out so they don't need to demonstrate the cost/benefits of making it required. They make it opt out because there are always a few people who object[1], so this is a safety valve. If everyone opted out ("I am Spartacus") then it would stop and they would have to switch to less efficient means. (If it weren't less efficient then they wouldn't need this one.) As John Gilmore points out at http://new.toad.com/gnu/ http://new.toad.com/gnu/ : "If you politely decline to show ID whenever someone asks (or demands) it, and continue politely declining regardless of how they escalate, you will discover what your rights are. You'll be surprised. You'll get away with it. Most of the people who were asking for it have no right to demand it. They've been relying on your voluntary cooperation. They forgot to tell you that part; but you just found it out for yourself. Sometimes you may discover that you didn't have the right to live, move around, or do business in your own country without government-issued documents. That's very interesting knowledge to acquire first-hand too. If you haven't recently tried exercising your right to exist and live without government permission, are you sure you still have that right?" [1] In one of the author Robert Heinlein's biographical accounts he walks out of a hotel because they demand to see id at registration. He went to another hotel which did not.
Spooky23 2y ago
What are you opting out of? Every state id picture is run through facial recognition, and that data is processed to detect duplicate people and other issues. Every passport has a picture which is digitized for facial recognition. This is a good thing, as it potentially disarms the stupid RealID fiasco with respect to ID and airports. There is no privacy benefit to document validation.
_yb2s 2y ago
TSA will punish you for opting out of anything. If you're lucky, the least they will do is hold you up a long time so you have a good chance of missing your flight. I've also had them sexually harass me, and confiscate (e.g. steal) legal items in retaliation for opting out of things I had the legal right to opt out of. They know people are in a hurry and won't do anything about being treated unethically or illegally, because calling them out would require missing your flight. When I opted out of the scanner once, I had to wait about 20 minutes, and then the TSA agent comes over to do a "pat down" instead, but is going inappropriately slow and squeezing my body, and saying things like "I'd bet you opted out because you like this." I regret not immediately calling them out and filing charges.
- casenmgreen 2y ago
  I always opt-out, of course. The most recent time, which was years ago now, when I was leaving the country (I'm not a US citizen, and had finished working on a H1-B). In the EU, there's delay - they have to get someone, you go to a room, pat-down. Unremarkable. In the US, delay, they get someone - but the "pat-down" was so forceful I had trouble keeping my balance. It seemed to me to be deliberately excessive. Fortunately, I do not live in, and do not need to travel to, the USA.
- 1659447091 2y ago
  I would be curious to know which airport(s) you receive this treatment from? I fly regularly between a handful of major US hubs. There is only one airport that I would be vocal about their treatment of passengers to a group of local TSA that I played co-ed sports with. The most senior one's response was that it wasn't surprising as that location (entire airport management) has had a toxic culture from the top down and they were trying to clean it up but it's still a bureaucracy. Anywhere else and I have an agent that would be having an off or bad day, but nothing like what you are describing at any of the others. When I pull the pre-check random scanner check, I opt out and will go straight into small talk with the agent, they don't like it any more than you do, (maybe one or two might) but the majority they want it over with as quickly as you do. My personal tactic is to go into my story of being sexually molested at a checkpoint at an airport in Spain. It was very unexpected and extremely uncomfortable, including the smile after as though waiting for me to drop my number. I can joke about it now, and it gives TSA agents an opening to assure me that is not their intent without being weird about it. They're also annoyed that people who do things like that give them all a bad rep
monksy 2y ago
This isn't a casual mistaken. Taking from the newly implemented border exit control that we've gotten. (If you think we don't have one, re-read that) : The GAO found that the ability for people to understand that Americans are not required to go through the biometric exit was non-existant and the experience of opting out was very poor. What this means is signage was not posted that indicating for Americans this is an optional process and people forming the "requirement" were not educated that it is optional for citizens. Yet, the experience is that people forcefully push people into to posing for the camera with markings on the floor, the lack of opting in/consenting to it, and prevent people from being aware of what's going on. (Yes: You can opt out .. walk up to the board area with your passport open to your photo page)
Klonoar 2y ago
> I opt out every time, but the horrifying thing is that almost everyone simply complies with whatever is asked of them. I honestly blame Apple for pushing FaceID, as it completely normalized facial recognition on a mass scale. Nobody thinks about this at all anymore. (No, it's not entirely Apple's fault, but I do think this point warrants more notice/discussion)
- Terretta 2y ago
  > Apple's fault Apple showed how this can be done without compromise. A combination of on-device-only FaceID and app-by-app opt-in to even trigger a validation, with on-device federal ID validation of some kind, putting you in control of presenting a cryptographically signed ID, would, in fact, be ideal for both convenience and privacy. IF you're going to require ID, that would be a fine way. The REAL issue is whether ID should be allowed to be required at all to move around, or if you have the right to anonymously assemble (and travel for assembly) within your own national boundary. That's the goalpost to debate.
  - Klonoar 2y ago
    > Apple showed how this can be done without compromise. Sure, but also no. I am outright stating that facial recognition did not need to become so normalized, and everyone getting used to it for the device in their pocket did no good in this regard. > IF you're going to require ID, that would be a fine way. Or we could just, y'know, do it the way we've been doing it for decades now.

bananapub 2y ago

Americans can opt out.

kareemm 2y ago
Nope - Canadian here, opted out in Austin.
- swat535 2y ago
  Unless you are a Canadian born in an undesirable country: Iran, Afghanistan, Syria, .. etc. It doesn't matter if you are citizen and have a passport, you will always be racially profiled when crossing the US unfortunately and I bet the experience will be much worse under the new Administration.
monksy 2y ago
You're talking about the border exit. We're talking about security after checkin.

corytheboyd 2y ago

People just want to get through an incredibly annoying experience as fast as possible, and they know the people behind them want this too. Doesn’t excuse the bullshit, but it’s much less of a dramatic “sheep bowing to authority” than made out to be here.

BadHumans 2y ago
This is it. I don't think I've opted out of it. I know I can but I know the agent is going to make a big deal of it and the line is already long for everyone behind me so whatever lets just get through it.
- jkestner 2y ago
  Nah. In my experience when you opt out, they say “Okay,” scan your ID the same way they’ve been doing for 20 years, and you get through in the same time. If they want to entice us with convenience, the facial recognition should allow you to just stroll through without talking to anyone.
  - BadHumans 2y ago
    I'll do it next time I'm flying to see what happens.

snakeyjake 2y ago

Generally speaking you present ID to pass through security. The facial recognition is based on the biometric data collected when you got your ID, the ID you presented to pass through security. The ID with your name, address, date of birth, and uniquely identifying number on it. The ID which is associated with your boarding pass. The ID they scan (or they scan the boarding pass which is associated with your ID) prior to letting you through security. Using facial recognition changes nothing, absolutely nothing, except that it reduces the amount of time spent at the checkpoint. It does not grant anyone access to any information they do not already have. It does not impede the traveler in any way. It does not change, at all, any aspect of one's privacy whatsoever. "But I don't wanna..." doesn't seem like a defensible position.

goalieca 2y ago
Maybe I’m old school but I despise the idea of the government tracking me as I travel. Time and time again they are caught violating privacy laws and abusing power.
- ipython 2y ago
  Given that you already need government issued ID that matches the name printed on your ticket to travel on an airplane, wouldn’t the government already have the ability to track you, regardless of facial recognition?
  - toomuchtodo 2y ago
    Indeed, the government doesn't even need the ID, they ingest a data feed of Passenger Name Records (PNRs) from all airlines. This is why when TSA performs the automated identity proofing, comparing a photo of you to your ID, they don't require that you provide a boarding pass. Comparing an ephemeral photo taken of you to your government credential at the TSA checkpoint is a temporary formality. At some point, the government credential presentation will be unnecessary. https://www.cbp.gov/travel/clearing-cbp/passenger-name-record https://www.cbp.gov/travel/clearing-cbp/passenger-name-recor... (Control-F "What information is collected?")

mdorazio 2y ago

What do you think opting out does exactly? For the system to work they must already have your photo associated with your name and ID. And even if you opt out they’re still tracking your movement. It seems like an impotent protest so I don’t bother.

eesmith 2y ago
They make it opt out so they don't need to demonstrate the cost/benefits of making it required. They make it opt out because there are always a few people who object[1], so this is a safety valve. If everyone opted out ("I am Spartacus") then it would stop and they would have to switch to less efficient means. (If it weren't less efficient then they wouldn't need this one.) As John Gilmore points out at http://new.toad.com/gnu/ http://new.toad.com/gnu/ : "If you politely decline to show ID whenever someone asks (or demands) it, and continue politely declining regardless of how they escalate, you will discover what your rights are. You'll be surprised. You'll get away with it. Most of the people who were asking for it have no right to demand it. They've been relying on your voluntary cooperation. They forgot to tell you that part; but you just found it out for yourself. Sometimes you may discover that you didn't have the right to live, move around, or do business in your own country without government-issued documents. That's very interesting knowledge to acquire first-hand too. If you haven't recently tried exercising your right to exist and live without government permission, are you sure you still have that right?" [1] In one of the author Robert Heinlein's biographical accounts he walks out of a hotel because they demand to see id at registration. He went to another hotel which did not.

Spooky23 2y ago

What are you opting out of? Every state id picture is run through facial recognition, and that data is processed to detect duplicate people and other issues. Every passport has a picture which is digitized for facial recognition. This is a good thing, as it potentially disarms the stupid RealID fiasco with respect to ID and airports. There is no privacy benefit to document validation.

_yb2s 2y ago

TSA will punish you for opting out of anything. If you're lucky, the least they will do is hold you up a long time so you have a good chance of missing your flight. I've also had them sexually harass me, and confiscate (e.g. steal) legal items in retaliation for opting out of things I had the legal right to opt out of. They know people are in a hurry and won't do anything about being treated unethically or illegally, because calling them out would require missing your flight. When I opted out of the scanner once, I had to wait about 20 minutes, and then the TSA agent comes over to do a "pat down" instead, but is going inappropriately slow and squeezing my body, and saying things like "I'd bet you opted out because you like this." I regret not immediately calling them out and filing charges.

casenmgreen 2y ago
I always opt-out, of course. The most recent time, which was years ago now, when I was leaving the country (I'm not a US citizen, and had finished working on a H1-B). In the EU, there's delay - they have to get someone, you go to a room, pat-down. Unremarkable. In the US, delay, they get someone - but the "pat-down" was so forceful I had trouble keeping my balance. It seemed to me to be deliberately excessive. Fortunately, I do not live in, and do not need to travel to, the USA.
1659447091 2y ago
I would be curious to know which airport(s) you receive this treatment from? I fly regularly between a handful of major US hubs. There is only one airport that I would be vocal about their treatment of passengers to a group of local TSA that I played co-ed sports with. The most senior one's response was that it wasn't surprising as that location (entire airport management) has had a toxic culture from the top down and they were trying to clean it up but it's still a bureaucracy. Anywhere else and I have an agent that would be having an off or bad day, but nothing like what you are describing at any of the others. When I pull the pre-check random scanner check, I opt out and will go straight into small talk with the agent, they don't like it any more than you do, (maybe one or two might) but the majority they want it over with as quickly as you do. My personal tactic is to go into my story of being sexually molested at a checkpoint at an airport in Spain. It was very unexpected and extremely uncomfortable, including the smile after as though waiting for me to drop my number. I can joke about it now, and it gives TSA agents an opening to assure me that is not their intent without being weird about it. They're also annoyed that people who do things like that give them all a bad rep

monksy 2y ago

This isn't a casual mistaken. Taking from the newly implemented border exit control that we've gotten. (If you think we don't have one, re-read that) : The GAO found that the ability for people to understand that Americans are not required to go through the biometric exit was non-existant and the experience of opting out was very poor. What this means is signage was not posted that indicating for Americans this is an optional process and people forming the "requirement" were not educated that it is optional for citizens. Yet, the experience is that people forcefully push people into to posing for the camera with markings on the floor, the lack of opting in/consenting to it, and prevent people from being aware of what's going on. (Yes: You can opt out .. walk up to the board area with your passport open to your photo page)

Klonoar 2y ago

> I opt out every time, but the horrifying thing is that almost everyone simply complies with whatever is asked of them. I honestly blame Apple for pushing FaceID, as it completely normalized facial recognition on a mass scale. Nobody thinks about this at all anymore. (No, it's not entirely Apple's fault, but I do think this point warrants more notice/discussion)

Terretta 2y ago
> Apple's fault Apple showed how this can be done without compromise. A combination of on-device-only FaceID and app-by-app opt-in to even trigger a validation, with on-device federal ID validation of some kind, putting you in control of presenting a cryptographically signed ID, would, in fact, be ideal for both convenience and privacy. IF you're going to require ID, that would be a fine way. The REAL issue is whether ID should be allowed to be required at all to move around, or if you have the right to anonymously assemble (and travel for assembly) within your own national boundary. That's the goalpost to debate.
- Klonoar 2y ago
  > Apple showed how this can be done without compromise. Sure, but also no. I am outright stating that facial recognition did not need to become so normalized, and everyone getting used to it for the device in their pocket did no good in this regard. > IF you're going to require ID, that would be a fine way. Or we could just, y'know, do it the way we've been doing it for decades now.