10 ms·

JS is eating the world. You can fight it like so many people before, but you will lose like everyone else

by mu53 2y ago

datadeft 2y ago
Same could have sad on any random subject. Examples: - High-fructose corn syrup is eating the world. . You can fight it like so many people before, but you will lose like everyone else - Cancer is eating the world. You can fight it like so many people before, but you will lose like everyone else Etc. I think bad things could be replaced with better things where we have this luxury. Taking a passive stance on this is pointless and lazy.
- meiraleal 2y ago
  That's because you dislike JS and think it is a problem to solve. That's a you problem. JS is no HFCS, what an absurd comparison.
pjmlp 2y ago
Until there are electricity bills from servers to pay. JavaScript on the server, only when I can't say no for whatever reason, like being forced to search for another job as consequence of it. Instead of rewriting JavaScript tools in Zig, Rust, Go, whatever cool compiled language of the month, use the said language directly.
- pdimitar 2y ago
  I believe all of Zig, Rust and Go have been around for long enough to not deserve the moniker "cool compiled language of the month" though. I do agree that it's time to write frontend not in JS. It has been time for 10+ years even but oh well.
  - DecoySalamander 2y ago
    On the contrary, it's time to move to JS for the UI of desktop applications as well. We've seen this approach become more and more popular with Electron over the last 10 years.
    - pdimitar 2y ago
      If you say so. Take a look at Slack and Teams and tell me that's what a performant and lagless UI feels like. ...Oh? What's that? I am hearing something faint in the distance, like... "their devs are not using JS well", maybe? Tell you what. If a technology can be held wrong, then it's a bad technology. Which, yes, encompasses most technology nowadays. You heard me.
      - foldr 2y ago
        But can you point to an app that has the same UX functionality as Slack that's been successfully implemented using Qt or another native toolkit?
        pdimitar 2y ago
        Wish I could but many people gave up and started using Electron due to employability. And we're stuck with crappy laggy UIs. I remember the MirandaIM multi-messenger from 20+ years ago very fondly... 50MB RAM usage and I was signed to 4 services, on a computer that my smartphone today can emulate 16 of, simultaneously, and it was still running faster than you can blink. Ehhhh, good times. Electron/JS is a herd just running in one direction, personified. The fact that something is popular does not imply quality, not at all. Most of the time it implies that everybody settled on it and does not want to hear otherwise for various reasons (in this case: money, as employers are never going to give you the requisite time to build stuff with Qt or others).
        foldr 2y ago
        It could be that Qt would work better and no-one is using it for the sorts of reasons that you mention. But I think the more plausible explanation is that no UI library can compete with what the browser offers anymore. This would hardly be surprising. The person hours invested in HTML+CSS rendering vastly exceed those invested in Qt or any other UI lib. The kind of argument you're making would be much more convincing if there were relevant examples of Qt-based apps that provided a superior user experience to the Electron apps you're criticising. I don't personally find Electron apps laggy in general. VSCode is very responsive, for example.
  - pjmlp 2y ago
    English reading compreehension problem, or feeling attacked?
    - pdimitar 2y ago
      Needlessly provocative. Sounds more like you felt attacked. No reason for me to feel attacked, I pointed out that what you said doesn't make much sense in terms of how long have these languages been around.
      - pjmlp 2y ago
        On the contrary, apparently we are in a need of English lesson over here. "Instead of rewriting JavaScript tools in Zig, Rust, Go, whatever cool compiled language of the month, use the said language directly." Meaning use Zig instead of JavaScript, use Rust instead of JavaScript, use Go instead of JavaScript, use "whatever cool compiled language of the month" instead of JavaScript, or if you prefer for the last example, use "whatever compiled language takes your fancy" instead of JavaScript. Clear enough?
        pdimitar 2y ago
        Would be clear if it did not seem to me that you are including three languages that have been around for a while in the "whatever cool compiled language of the month" group. If not -- then clear. If yes, then this is getting even more confusing.
        pjmlp 2y ago
        It is called an enumerations of choices, 3 named ones, followed by a generalisation of whatever else might possible as option. Given that boring languages like Java, C#, OCaml, Haskell are kind behind their times for cool kids to rewrite stuff, that leaves the unamed cool programming language of the month as option, whatever that language may be.
        KPGv2 2y ago
pdimitar 2y ago
You are not paying attention. WASM's ecosystem is moving slowly but surely in the direction of JS being thrown away for good. Ain't happening anytime soon -- sadly -- but especially with WIT used to specify various modules and collections of modules plus having more or less uniform function specification, the days of JS' monopoly are numbered. The writing is on the wall. There are successful WASM web apps not written in JS today. JS is being tolerated. Not adored. Frontenders are living in a bubble and don't see it.
- wiseowise 2y ago
  > There are successful WASM web apps not written in JS today. Such as? > JS is being tolerated. Not adored. Can you prove it? I’ve seen enough people of JS being adored. I am one of them (maybe because I use it mostly for hobby projects).
  - BiteCode_dev 2y ago
    If you haven't coded serious projects in at least 5 very different languages, you likely adore one language because you just don't know better. There is such a variation between js, perl, python, rust, C#, lisp, bash, haskell, erlang and sql that the blind spot is huge. It's like eating hot dogs all your life and debating food merits with people that tasted japanese, indian and french food.
    - wiseowise 2y ago
      I’m mixing Python, C++, Java, Kotlin and shell scripting professionally. Used to work on enterprise C# project. Experimented on a hobby level with Elixir, Haskell, OCaml, Ruby, TypeScript, JS, Dart.
      - neonsunset 2y ago
        I'm recently enjoying F# a lot. What really sold it was partial application and absolutely bonkers type inference with gradual typing. You just write code and let type system infer the signature of the functions, only specifying the types when necessary. It's so much cleaner and I'm sorely missing it in C#. It's a bit off-topic but if you liked Elixir it's kind of like Elixir but fast, and like OCaml but widely usable in production. It could also be familiar after Python due to mostly indentation-based scoping and not having to define signatures (except you go from something terrible and untyped to Hindley-Milner).
vacuity 2y ago
Grandparent is making the case that it shouldn't have this role, which is independent of it having the role. It seems contrary to "the hacker spirit" to use the is-ought fallacy to discourage innovation. Is it wrong to have a contrary, if probably doomed to fail, stance to the mainstream? But of course a contrary idea would fail if everyone seeks the mainstream instead of it. To justify sticking to the mainstream, you have to weigh its costs against the benefits of the alternative too.

JS is eating the world. You can fight it like so many people before, but you will lose like everyone else

by mu53 2y ago

JS is eating the world. You can fight it like so many people before, but you will lose like everyone else

Same could have sad on any random subject. Examples: - High-fructose corn syrup is eating the world. . You can fight it like so many people before, but you will lose like everyone else - Cancer is eating the world. You can fight it like so many people before, but you will lose like everyone else Etc. I think bad things could be replaced with better things where we have this luxury. Taking a passive stance on this is pointless and lazy.

meiraleal 2y ago
That's because you dislike JS and think it is a problem to solve. That's a you problem. JS is no HFCS, what an absurd comparison.

pjmlp 2y ago

Until there are electricity bills from servers to pay. JavaScript on the server, only when I can't say no for whatever reason, like being forced to search for another job as consequence of it. Instead of rewriting JavaScript tools in Zig, Rust, Go, whatever cool compiled language of the month, use the said language directly.

pdimitar 2y ago
I believe all of Zig, Rust and Go have been around for long enough to not deserve the moniker "cool compiled language of the month" though. I do agree that it's time to write frontend not in JS. It has been time for 10+ years even but oh well.
- DecoySalamander 2y ago
  On the contrary, it's time to move to JS for the UI of desktop applications as well. We've seen this approach become more and more popular with Electron over the last 10 years.
  - pdimitar 2y ago
    If you say so. Take a look at Slack and Teams and tell me that's what a performant and lagless UI feels like. ...Oh? What's that? I am hearing something faint in the distance, like... "their devs are not using JS well", maybe? Tell you what. If a technology can be held wrong, then it's a bad technology. Which, yes, encompasses most technology nowadays. You heard me.
    - foldr 2y ago
      But can you point to an app that has the same UX functionality as Slack that's been successfully implemented using Qt or another native toolkit?
      - pdimitar 2y ago
        Wish I could but many people gave up and started using Electron due to employability. And we're stuck with crappy laggy UIs. I remember the MirandaIM multi-messenger from 20+ years ago very fondly... 50MB RAM usage and I was signed to 4 services, on a computer that my smartphone today can emulate 16 of, simultaneously, and it was still running faster than you can blink. Ehhhh, good times. Electron/JS is a herd just running in one direction, personified. The fact that something is popular does not imply quality, not at all. Most of the time it implies that everybody settled on it and does not want to hear otherwise for various reasons (in this case: money, as employers are never going to give you the requisite time to build stuff with Qt or others).
        foldr 2y ago
        It could be that Qt would work better and no-one is using it for the sorts of reasons that you mention. But I think the more plausible explanation is that no UI library can compete with what the browser offers anymore. This would hardly be surprising. The person hours invested in HTML+CSS rendering vastly exceed those invested in Qt or any other UI lib. The kind of argument you're making would be much more convincing if there were relevant examples of Qt-based apps that provided a superior user experience to the Electron apps you're criticising. I don't personally find Electron apps laggy in general. VSCode is very responsive, for example.
- pjmlp 2y ago
  English reading compreehension problem, or feeling attacked?
  - pdimitar 2y ago
    Needlessly provocative. Sounds more like you felt attacked. No reason for me to feel attacked, I pointed out that what you said doesn't make much sense in terms of how long have these languages been around.
    - pjmlp 2y ago
      On the contrary, apparently we are in a need of English lesson over here. "Instead of rewriting JavaScript tools in Zig, Rust, Go, whatever cool compiled language of the month, use the said language directly." Meaning use Zig instead of JavaScript, use Rust instead of JavaScript, use Go instead of JavaScript, use "whatever cool compiled language of the month" instead of JavaScript, or if you prefer for the last example, use "whatever compiled language takes your fancy" instead of JavaScript. Clear enough?
      - pdimitar 2y ago
        Would be clear if it did not seem to me that you are including three languages that have been around for a while in the "whatever cool compiled language of the month" group. If not -- then clear. If yes, then this is getting even more confusing.
        pjmlp 2y ago
        It is called an enumerations of choices, 3 named ones, followed by a generalisation of whatever else might possible as option. Given that boring languages like Java, C#, OCaml, Haskell are kind behind their times for cool kids to rewrite stuff, that leaves the unamed cool programming language of the month as option, whatever that language may be.
        KPGv2 2y ago

pdimitar 2y ago

You are not paying attention. WASM's ecosystem is moving slowly but surely in the direction of JS being thrown away for good. Ain't happening anytime soon -- sadly -- but especially with WIT used to specify various modules and collections of modules plus having more or less uniform function specification, the days of JS' monopoly are numbered. The writing is on the wall. There are successful WASM web apps not written in JS today. JS is being tolerated. Not adored. Frontenders are living in a bubble and don't see it.

wiseowise 2y ago
> There are successful WASM web apps not written in JS today. Such as? > JS is being tolerated. Not adored. Can you prove it? I’ve seen enough people of JS being adored. I am one of them (maybe because I use it mostly for hobby projects).
- BiteCode_dev 2y ago
  If you haven't coded serious projects in at least 5 very different languages, you likely adore one language because you just don't know better. There is such a variation between js, perl, python, rust, C#, lisp, bash, haskell, erlang and sql that the blind spot is huge. It's like eating hot dogs all your life and debating food merits with people that tasted japanese, indian and french food.
  - wiseowise 2y ago
    I’m mixing Python, C++, Java, Kotlin and shell scripting professionally. Used to work on enterprise C# project. Experimented on a hobby level with Elixir, Haskell, OCaml, Ruby, TypeScript, JS, Dart.
    - neonsunset 2y ago
      I'm recently enjoying F# a lot. What really sold it was partial application and absolutely bonkers type inference with gradual typing. You just write code and let type system infer the signature of the functions, only specifying the types when necessary. It's so much cleaner and I'm sorely missing it in C#. It's a bit off-topic but if you liked Elixir it's kind of like Elixir but fast, and like OCaml but widely usable in production. It could also be familiar after Python due to mostly indentation-based scoping and not having to define signatures (except you go from something terrible and untyped to Hindley-Milner).

vacuity 2y ago

Grandparent is making the case that it shouldn't have this role, which is independent of it having the role. It seems contrary to "the hacker spirit" to use the is-ought fallacy to discourage innovation. Is it wrong to have a contrary, if probably doomed to fail, stance to the mainstream? But of course a contrary idea would fail if everyone seeks the mainstream instead of it. To justify sticking to the mainstream, you have to weigh its costs against the benefits of the alternative too.