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What a missed opportunity! A note in a bottle in a lighthouse seems like the perfect opportunity to be more poetic, inspiring and exciting. I hope the current

What a missed opportunity! A note in a bottle in a lighthouse seems like the perfect opportunity to be more poetic, inspiring and exciting. I hope the current engineers leave a better note for the engineers of the next century.

tempodox 2y ago
These days it would be a post on Instagram or Twitter. Nobody will find those in 100 years.
krisoft 2y ago
> I hope the current engineers leave a better note for the engineers of the next century. I don't like what you are saying. A more poetic note is not "better". You think it is, and that certainly can be your value but you are not the one fixing the light house. It is perfectly fine if all they did is to just write down who they were and what they were doing. They don't owe you some poetic inspiring letter just because they were in a place you associate with poetry. And certainly it wouldn't be "better" in an objective sense. In fact it would be less true if that is not the feeling they had. If they were sitting there thinking "need more grease so this bearing doesn't seize up" but wrote "Beacon stands steadfast,/ Waves crash 'gainst its ageless stone—/ A hymn to the stars." That would be worse, because it would be inauthentic.
- upghost 2y ago
  I think the point is that this type of content of the message usually goes on something like an engraved plaque or a something that would go in a public records office. In fact, no one would have even clicked on this story and it would not be on HN if the story were "dusty plaque found in lighthouse". A "message in a bottle", especially at a lighthouse, conjures the romantic idea of a secret easter egg. I get what you are saying, but try to understand what was being said by the person you were responding to as well!
  - OJFord 2y ago
    To be honest I was surprised at the newsworthiness given it was hidden in the lighthouse (not a message in a bottle at sea) and then in that context only 132 years old. If I started lifting floorboards and breaking plaster at home I'm fairly confident I'd find something older. At school we buried a 'time capsule' for the millennium I think for 50 years thence. That'll be cool for the pupils in 2050, but it won't be news.
    - bryanrasmussen 2y ago
      > only 132 years old. You're in the UK, the article is in the NY Times - 132 years old seems older to an American than it does to you, that combined with the message in bottle in lighthouse and Scotland all together sparked interest.
      - aspenmayer 2y ago
        Reminds me of the adage, I’m not sure by whom, paraphrasing: > Americans think 100 years is a long time; Brits think 100 miles is a long way.
      - OJFord 2y ago
        I read it on the BBC linked elsewhere in comments, since it contained the text of the letter and this thread (with the text in top-level comment) didn't exist at the time.
      - tocs3 2y ago
        "132 years old seems older to an American than it does to you" As an American, I take some small exception here. I have met people who were alive when this letter was written. 132 years was a long time ago, but not that long.
        bryanrasmussen 2y ago
        OK I am just going to venture a guess that most people you meet in your day to day think of you as old. Of course you may be an outlier in that. Your architectural experiences may also be an outlier, but I think you will probably admit that most Americans have not lived in a 100+ year old house, hey, a good number of them might live in places where you have to drive hours to find a building that old. This is in contrast to much of the world I believe, it is at any rate definitely in contrast to Europe. on edit: this is of course not 100% reasoned through, this being HN someone could of course make a map showing how close in the U.S any person is to a building over 100+ years, or they could show that perhaps if you take the major population centers into account it will show that actually a majority of the population does in fact live within walking distance of such an old building, but all that taken into account I'm going to stick to my guns that to most Americans a house of 100+ years old is real old, and to everybody in the area I live in it's just home.
- bryanrasmussen 2y ago
  Is authenticity better than inauthenticity? If you think yes - is Ted Nugent a better artist than David Bowie?
  - volemo 2y ago
    Is such comparison even applicable to artists? I believe one artist can be more popular, better selling, more impactful in their field, but better?
- Exuma 2y ago
  Yes it is. That is, after all, the entire point of a message in a bottle (unless you're trapped on an island, that is). A fun, whimsical idea so people in some other region or time can get a glimpse of the world you're in. A list of names is extremely unexciting.
  - krisoft 2y ago
    > people in some other region or time can get a glimpse of the world you're in. Yes. And we the people of a different time got a glimpse into the world they were in. > A list of names is extremely unexciting. Nevertheless that is what was important for them. That is their world. You don’t want a glimpse into their world. You want their world to conform to your idea of what it must feel like to be on a lighthouse.
    - Exuma 2y ago
      Do you think humor and intrigue was invented in 2023? The lighthouse is irrelevant. The message in the bottle is relevant. "The world they live in" assuredly had creativity, humor, that could be tapped. "Nevertheless..." so you basically agree its extremely unexciting? That's the point. Would you click this post if it said "list creators of lighthouse found on piece of paper inside lighthouse"? The point of a message in the bottle is that it's to make something legitimately interesting for the person reading (assuming it's not attempting to save a persons life stranded on an island)... Presumably the people doing this entire exercise were aware of that. When you take part in some activity, there is an expected amount of context which you are expected to have awareness of, similar to how when you make a movie, while you CAN kill off the main character in a cliffhanger unsatisfying way, you also have to expect people are going to hate your movie. The fact that a bunch of engineers thought this was "most interesting" is, in itself not surprising I guess. But people lamenting that they could have done a lot better, is 100% valid. > You want their world to conform to your idea of what it must feel like to be on a lighthouse for other "lighthouse people" False. I literally want to read something interesting if I'm pulling a piece of paper out of a 100 year old bottle. There is an entire universe of topics besides a laundry list of names that could be done. They didn't because they thought this was what people 100 years in the future should see. Therefore, the entire experiment of "message in a bottle" is about as boring as it could possibly be. You literally couldn't make it more boring if you tried. Maybe a blank sheet of paper? The fact these names were meaningful to them, and the fact that this is an extremely boring outcome and leave people wanting more, can exist simultaneously. I will mention the one saving grace is that it was left in the lighthouse As an analogy, if I found 100 year old bottle in the floorboards of my house, a list of names could be made more interesting with... a photo, what their occupations are... what their favorite hobby or cherished item is, what used to be on the land before our house, what crops used to grow there, how the land was found, what kind of deed purchase it was, where they immigrated from. Literally 1000s of ideas to add detail.
- PittleyDunkin 2y ago
  Oh god, not inauthenticity! The greatest of all crimes.
- aprilthird2021 2y ago
  So odd, if you told any of your loved ones, or a random stranger, "Hey they found a hundred+ year old message in a bottle recently, want to hear what it said?" The person would of course want to know and of course be disappointed to find out it's essentially the credits for who built a lighthouse, and yet tons of HN'ers are super mad at the insinuation that the letter ended up being more or less a waste.
  - notnaut 2y ago
    The imbedded disdain a lot of tech minded people have for anything frivolous ought to tell you why so many of them have a hard time finding meaning, comfort, human connection.
    - pfdietz 2y ago
      So, the diametric opposite of all those tech people who are furries.
    - krisoft 2y ago
      > imbedded disdain a lot of tech minded people have for anything frivolous My disdain is not for things frivolous. I'm a big fan of frivolous things. My disdain is for those who wish these long departed engineers did things in order to entertain us in this day and age. If they, the original engineers, would have wanted to write a poem that would be great. That is their choice. We got a glimpse into their world and the commenter doesn't like what they see. Saying that what they did wasn't the right thing to do assumes that the commenter ideas are more correct than their ideas. That's arrogant. If you think it's not the right message, go restore your own lighthouse and leave the message you want to leave. Instead of telling others what they should have.
      - aprilthird2021 2y ago
        > My disdain is for those who wish these long departed engineers did things in order to entertain us in this day and age. Surely you don't think they are actually upset at some people none of us know for not writing a poetic message. The point is: "Wow, we found a hundreds of years old message, what amazing insights of the past might we glean, what insights into the minds of that time?" "Oh, it's just a list of who built a lighthouse" > Saying that what they did wasn't the right thing to do assumes that the commenter ideas are more correct than their ideas. That's arrogant. I will butt in here though, if you have a chance to drift out a message to sea with some hope someone else may find it one day and read what you wrote, would you write that you were the author of some open source project? Or would you write something about your real feelings, the world around you, your thoughts and hopes and dreams, or maybe even share something about your town, your ancestors, your culture, the things you care about, etc. Most of us, I'm sure, would not choose to do the former.
mangamadaiyan 2y ago
It was written by hand, in a rather poetic, inspiring, and exciting handwriting! At least, I find it so. The bottle likely helped preserve the paper and the writing. In addition, I'd guess that they used good quality paper, because Iron Gall ink - which was in vogue at the time the letter was written - is fairly corrosive and can eat through paper. Addendum: I also find the bland (under)statement of their work comforting and inspiring.
- galangalalgol 2y ago
  Isn't that just how people were taught to write at the time? I had always heard that children were taught to write differently in the uk than in the us, but all those letters were exactly how I was taught 90 years later in the us. The r varies a couple places but the one used more often is how I was taught. I was taught with a ballpoint/biro, but with a flexible nib or brush pen it comes out looking like that, just not as pretty. I'm not sure if that is iron gall. There is a little bit of water damage in one spot and I've never seen real iron gall move around at all onve dry. You can use watercolors or even alcohol markers over it.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - mangamadaiyan 2y ago
    Yes, that was likely the handwriting in vogue at the time. It is beautiful, however! I don't know what kind of ink they would've used if not iron gall. Also, modern IG formulations differ from older ones, I think. As far as the handwriting goes, while the one from the note is recognizable, the script you learned at school was likely different. Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teaching_script https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teaching_script
    - galangalalgol 2y ago
      I was taught https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%27Nealian https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%27Nealian The uppercase t and h are the two main differences, but I guess I adopted the spencerian or copperplate version at some point. Lampblack ink or india ink was in use as well and spots with lots of pigment can have it move when wet. Edit: it would seem synthetic aniline based black inks were in use for personal writing by that time. Aniline black isn't even close to waterfast, so that might very well be it.
gregw2 2y ago
It's just a lighthouse engineer's form of marking the territory they built/operated like a modern day software easter egg. Their life's work was not a romance or linguistic creation, for better or worse. "Just the facts, m'am" Actually this actually sounds more like a forgotten formulaic ritual you were supposed to do for good luck whenever building a lighthouse, not even a true attempt to communicate in this instance. If that is your point then I agree.
morning-coffee 2y ago
With entitlement evident Victorian engineers denigrated by Internet generation Whose vapidity is greater Is that poetic enough for you?
- upghost 2y ago
  In all seriousness it would be fun to know a little more about the story. Was this a rebellious act? Is this practice more common? Did this company do more things like this? Was the restraint in the message a sign of professionalism? Was the message debated? Was there one guy who was like, "guys the internet is gonna hate this"? Was this OG sh*t-posting!?
- Exuma 2y ago
  Overreaction to a definitely arguably true statement. You can tell the bitterest basement dwellers when they self-identify by using the word vapid. It's the dead giveaway word.
garciansmith 2y ago
I can't count the times I've researched a building only to find no one bothered to write down even the name of an architect, let alone the name of the builders. That they even named a laborer working on the project is great; the kind of detail in that note is extremely rare. Definitely more interesting to me as a historian than finding a poem about blazing a light through the darkness to guide lost sailors or something (not that that wouldn't be neat too).
thih9 2y ago
> What a missed opportunity! A note in a bottle in a lighthouse seems like the perfect opportunity to be more poetic, inspiring and exciting. Were there other messages with “more poetic, inspiring and exciting” content from around that time and place?

tempodox 2y ago

These days it would be a post on Instagram or Twitter. Nobody will find those in 100 years.

krisoft 2y ago

> I hope the current engineers leave a better note for the engineers of the next century. I don't like what you are saying. A more poetic note is not "better". You think it is, and that certainly can be your value but you are not the one fixing the light house. It is perfectly fine if all they did is to just write down who they were and what they were doing. They don't owe you some poetic inspiring letter just because they were in a place you associate with poetry. And certainly it wouldn't be "better" in an objective sense. In fact it would be less true if that is not the feeling they had. If they were sitting there thinking "need more grease so this bearing doesn't seize up" but wrote "Beacon stands steadfast,/ Waves crash 'gainst its ageless stone—/ A hymn to the stars." That would be worse, because it would be inauthentic.

upghost 2y ago
I think the point is that this type of content of the message usually goes on something like an engraved plaque or a something that would go in a public records office. In fact, no one would have even clicked on this story and it would not be on HN if the story were "dusty plaque found in lighthouse". A "message in a bottle", especially at a lighthouse, conjures the romantic idea of a secret easter egg. I get what you are saying, but try to understand what was being said by the person you were responding to as well!
- OJFord 2y ago
  To be honest I was surprised at the newsworthiness given it was hidden in the lighthouse (not a message in a bottle at sea) and then in that context only 132 years old. If I started lifting floorboards and breaking plaster at home I'm fairly confident I'd find something older. At school we buried a 'time capsule' for the millennium I think for 50 years thence. That'll be cool for the pupils in 2050, but it won't be news.
  - bryanrasmussen 2y ago
    > only 132 years old. You're in the UK, the article is in the NY Times - 132 years old seems older to an American than it does to you, that combined with the message in bottle in lighthouse and Scotland all together sparked interest.
    - aspenmayer 2y ago
      Reminds me of the adage, I’m not sure by whom, paraphrasing: > Americans think 100 years is a long time; Brits think 100 miles is a long way.
    - OJFord 2y ago
      I read it on the BBC linked elsewhere in comments, since it contained the text of the letter and this thread (with the text in top-level comment) didn't exist at the time.
    - tocs3 2y ago
      "132 years old seems older to an American than it does to you" As an American, I take some small exception here. I have met people who were alive when this letter was written. 132 years was a long time ago, but not that long.
      - bryanrasmussen 2y ago
        OK I am just going to venture a guess that most people you meet in your day to day think of you as old. Of course you may be an outlier in that. Your architectural experiences may also be an outlier, but I think you will probably admit that most Americans have not lived in a 100+ year old house, hey, a good number of them might live in places where you have to drive hours to find a building that old. This is in contrast to much of the world I believe, it is at any rate definitely in contrast to Europe. on edit: this is of course not 100% reasoned through, this being HN someone could of course make a map showing how close in the U.S any person is to a building over 100+ years, or they could show that perhaps if you take the major population centers into account it will show that actually a majority of the population does in fact live within walking distance of such an old building, but all that taken into account I'm going to stick to my guns that to most Americans a house of 100+ years old is real old, and to everybody in the area I live in it's just home.
bryanrasmussen 2y ago
Is authenticity better than inauthenticity? If you think yes - is Ted Nugent a better artist than David Bowie?
- volemo 2y ago
  Is such comparison even applicable to artists? I believe one artist can be more popular, better selling, more impactful in their field, but better?
Exuma 2y ago
Yes it is. That is, after all, the entire point of a message in a bottle (unless you're trapped on an island, that is). A fun, whimsical idea so people in some other region or time can get a glimpse of the world you're in. A list of names is extremely unexciting.
- krisoft 2y ago
  > people in some other region or time can get a glimpse of the world you're in. Yes. And we the people of a different time got a glimpse into the world they were in. > A list of names is extremely unexciting. Nevertheless that is what was important for them. That is their world. You don’t want a glimpse into their world. You want their world to conform to your idea of what it must feel like to be on a lighthouse.
  - Exuma 2y ago
    Do you think humor and intrigue was invented in 2023? The lighthouse is irrelevant. The message in the bottle is relevant. "The world they live in" assuredly had creativity, humor, that could be tapped. "Nevertheless..." so you basically agree its extremely unexciting? That's the point. Would you click this post if it said "list creators of lighthouse found on piece of paper inside lighthouse"? The point of a message in the bottle is that it's to make something legitimately interesting for the person reading (assuming it's not attempting to save a persons life stranded on an island)... Presumably the people doing this entire exercise were aware of that. When you take part in some activity, there is an expected amount of context which you are expected to have awareness of, similar to how when you make a movie, while you CAN kill off the main character in a cliffhanger unsatisfying way, you also have to expect people are going to hate your movie. The fact that a bunch of engineers thought this was "most interesting" is, in itself not surprising I guess. But people lamenting that they could have done a lot better, is 100% valid. > You want their world to conform to your idea of what it must feel like to be on a lighthouse for other "lighthouse people" False. I literally want to read something interesting if I'm pulling a piece of paper out of a 100 year old bottle. There is an entire universe of topics besides a laundry list of names that could be done. They didn't because they thought this was what people 100 years in the future should see. Therefore, the entire experiment of "message in a bottle" is about as boring as it could possibly be. You literally couldn't make it more boring if you tried. Maybe a blank sheet of paper? The fact these names were meaningful to them, and the fact that this is an extremely boring outcome and leave people wanting more, can exist simultaneously. I will mention the one saving grace is that it was left in the lighthouse As an analogy, if I found 100 year old bottle in the floorboards of my house, a list of names could be made more interesting with... a photo, what their occupations are... what their favorite hobby or cherished item is, what used to be on the land before our house, what crops used to grow there, how the land was found, what kind of deed purchase it was, where they immigrated from. Literally 1000s of ideas to add detail.
PittleyDunkin 2y ago
Oh god, not inauthenticity! The greatest of all crimes.
aprilthird2021 2y ago
So odd, if you told any of your loved ones, or a random stranger, "Hey they found a hundred+ year old message in a bottle recently, want to hear what it said?" The person would of course want to know and of course be disappointed to find out it's essentially the credits for who built a lighthouse, and yet tons of HN'ers are super mad at the insinuation that the letter ended up being more or less a waste.
- notnaut 2y ago
  The imbedded disdain a lot of tech minded people have for anything frivolous ought to tell you why so many of them have a hard time finding meaning, comfort, human connection.
  - pfdietz 2y ago
    So, the diametric opposite of all those tech people who are furries.
  - krisoft 2y ago
    > imbedded disdain a lot of tech minded people have for anything frivolous My disdain is not for things frivolous. I'm a big fan of frivolous things. My disdain is for those who wish these long departed engineers did things in order to entertain us in this day and age. If they, the original engineers, would have wanted to write a poem that would be great. That is their choice. We got a glimpse into their world and the commenter doesn't like what they see. Saying that what they did wasn't the right thing to do assumes that the commenter ideas are more correct than their ideas. That's arrogant. If you think it's not the right message, go restore your own lighthouse and leave the message you want to leave. Instead of telling others what they should have.
    - aprilthird2021 2y ago
      > My disdain is for those who wish these long departed engineers did things in order to entertain us in this day and age. Surely you don't think they are actually upset at some people none of us know for not writing a poetic message. The point is: "Wow, we found a hundreds of years old message, what amazing insights of the past might we glean, what insights into the minds of that time?" "Oh, it's just a list of who built a lighthouse" > Saying that what they did wasn't the right thing to do assumes that the commenter ideas are more correct than their ideas. That's arrogant. I will butt in here though, if you have a chance to drift out a message to sea with some hope someone else may find it one day and read what you wrote, would you write that you were the author of some open source project? Or would you write something about your real feelings, the world around you, your thoughts and hopes and dreams, or maybe even share something about your town, your ancestors, your culture, the things you care about, etc. Most of us, I'm sure, would not choose to do the former.

mangamadaiyan 2y ago

It was written by hand, in a rather poetic, inspiring, and exciting handwriting! At least, I find it so. The bottle likely helped preserve the paper and the writing. In addition, I'd guess that they used good quality paper, because Iron Gall ink - which was in vogue at the time the letter was written - is fairly corrosive and can eat through paper. Addendum: I also find the bland (under)statement of their work comforting and inspiring.

galangalalgol 2y ago
Isn't that just how people were taught to write at the time? I had always heard that children were taught to write differently in the uk than in the us, but all those letters were exactly how I was taught 90 years later in the us. The r varies a couple places but the one used more often is how I was taught. I was taught with a ballpoint/biro, but with a flexible nib or brush pen it comes out looking like that, just not as pretty. I'm not sure if that is iron gall. There is a little bit of water damage in one spot and I've never seen real iron gall move around at all onve dry. You can use watercolors or even alcohol markers over it.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- mangamadaiyan 2y ago
  Yes, that was likely the handwriting in vogue at the time. It is beautiful, however! I don't know what kind of ink they would've used if not iron gall. Also, modern IG formulations differ from older ones, I think. As far as the handwriting goes, while the one from the note is recognizable, the script you learned at school was likely different. Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teaching_script https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teaching_script
  - galangalalgol 2y ago
    I was taught https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%27Nealian https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%27Nealian The uppercase t and h are the two main differences, but I guess I adopted the spencerian or copperplate version at some point. Lampblack ink or india ink was in use as well and spots with lots of pigment can have it move when wet. Edit: it would seem synthetic aniline based black inks were in use for personal writing by that time. Aniline black isn't even close to waterfast, so that might very well be it.

gregw2 2y ago

It's just a lighthouse engineer's form of marking the territory they built/operated like a modern day software easter egg. Their life's work was not a romance or linguistic creation, for better or worse. "Just the facts, m'am" Actually this actually sounds more like a forgotten formulaic ritual you were supposed to do for good luck whenever building a lighthouse, not even a true attempt to communicate in this instance. If that is your point then I agree.

morning-coffee 2y ago

With entitlement evident Victorian engineers denigrated by Internet generation Whose vapidity is greater Is that poetic enough for you?

upghost 2y ago
In all seriousness it would be fun to know a little more about the story. Was this a rebellious act? Is this practice more common? Did this company do more things like this? Was the restraint in the message a sign of professionalism? Was the message debated? Was there one guy who was like, "guys the internet is gonna hate this"? Was this OG sh*t-posting!?
Exuma 2y ago
Overreaction to a definitely arguably true statement. You can tell the bitterest basement dwellers when they self-identify by using the word vapid. It's the dead giveaway word.

garciansmith 2y ago

I can't count the times I've researched a building only to find no one bothered to write down even the name of an architect, let alone the name of the builders. That they even named a laborer working on the project is great; the kind of detail in that note is extremely rare. Definitely more interesting to me as a historian than finding a poem about blazing a light through the darkness to guide lost sailors or something (not that that wouldn't be neat too).

thih9 2y ago

> What a missed opportunity! A note in a bottle in a lighthouse seems like the perfect opportunity to be more poetic, inspiring and exciting. Were there other messages with “more poetic, inspiring and exciting” content from around that time and place?