7 ms·

The ECMAScript committee really need to address the core issues of JS performance - native integers, structs, linear layouts, stack allocation, SIMD, memory are

The ECMAScript committee really need to address the core issues of JS performance - native integers, structs, linear layouts, stack allocation, SIMD, memory arenas, etc. Javascript should ideally be capable of superb performance for its own tools.

pjmlp 2y ago
JavaScript should stay confined to the browser, people are solving the wrong problem.
- wiseowise 2y ago
  As if those things don’t apply to browser.
- mu53 2y ago
  JS is eating the world. You can fight it like so many people before, but you will lose like everyone else
  - datadeft 2y ago
    Same could have sad on any random subject. Examples: - High-fructose corn syrup is eating the world. . You can fight it like so many people before, but you will lose like everyone else - Cancer is eating the world. You can fight it like so many people before, but you will lose like everyone else Etc. I think bad things could be replaced with better things where we have this luxury. Taking a passive stance on this is pointless and lazy.
    - meiraleal 2y ago
      That's because you dislike JS and think it is a problem to solve. That's a you problem. JS is no HFCS, what an absurd comparison.
  - pjmlp 2y ago
    Until there are electricity bills from servers to pay. JavaScript on the server, only when I can't say no for whatever reason, like being forced to search for another job as consequence of it. Instead of rewriting JavaScript tools in Zig, Rust, Go, whatever cool compiled language of the month, use the said language directly.
    - pdimitar 2y ago
      I believe all of Zig, Rust and Go have been around for long enough to not deserve the moniker "cool compiled language of the month" though. I do agree that it's time to write frontend not in JS. It has been time for 10+ years even but oh well.
      - DecoySalamander 2y ago
        On the contrary, it's time to move to JS for the UI of desktop applications as well. We've seen this approach become more and more popular with Electron over the last 10 years.
        pdimitar 2y ago
        If you say so. Take a look at Slack and Teams and tell me that's what a performant and lagless UI feels like. ...Oh? What's that? I am hearing something faint in the distance, like... "their devs are not using JS well", maybe? Tell you what. If a technology can be held wrong, then it's a bad technology. Which, yes, encompasses most technology nowadays. You heard me.
        foldr 2y ago
        But can you point to an app that has the same UX functionality as Slack that's been successfully implemented using Qt or another native toolkit?
        pdimitar 2y ago
        Wish I could but many people gave up and started using Electron due to employability. And we're stuck with crappy laggy UIs. I remember the MirandaIM multi-messenger from 20+ years ago very fondly... 50MB RAM usage and I was signed to 4 services, on a computer that my smartphone today can emulate 16 of, simultaneously, and it was still running faster than you can blink. Ehhhh, good times. Electron/JS is a herd just running in one direction, personified. The fact that something is popular does not imply quality, not at all. Most of the time it implies that everybody settled on it and does not want to hear otherwise for various reasons (in this case: money, as employers are never going to give you the requisite time to build stuff with Qt or others).
  - pdimitar 2y ago
    You are not paying attention. WASM's ecosystem is moving slowly but surely in the direction of JS being thrown away for good. Ain't happening anytime soon -- sadly -- but especially with WIT used to specify various modules and collections of modules plus having more or less uniform function specification, the days of JS' monopoly are numbered. The writing is on the wall. There are successful WASM web apps not written in JS today. JS is being tolerated. Not adored. Frontenders are living in a bubble and don't see it.
    - wiseowise 2y ago
      > There are successful WASM web apps not written in JS today. Such as? > JS is being tolerated. Not adored. Can you prove it? I’ve seen enough people of JS being adored. I am one of them (maybe because I use it mostly for hobby projects).
      - BiteCode_dev 2y ago
        If you haven't coded serious projects in at least 5 very different languages, you likely adore one language because you just don't know better. There is such a variation between js, perl, python, rust, C#, lisp, bash, haskell, erlang and sql that the blind spot is huge. It's like eating hot dogs all your life and debating food merits with people that tasted japanese, indian and french food.
        wiseowise 2y ago
        I’m mixing Python, C++, Java, Kotlin and shell scripting professionally. Used to work on enterprise C# project. Experimented on a hobby level with Elixir, Haskell, OCaml, Ruby, TypeScript, JS, Dart.
        neonsunset 2y ago
        I'm recently enjoying F# a lot. What really sold it was partial application and absolutely bonkers type inference with gradual typing. You just write code and let type system infer the signature of the functions, only specifying the types when necessary. It's so much cleaner and I'm sorely missing it in C#. It's a bit off-topic but if you liked Elixir it's kind of like Elixir but fast, and like OCaml but widely usable in production. It could also be familiar after Python due to mostly indentation-based scoping and not having to define signatures (except you go from something terrible and untyped to Hindley-Milner).
  - vacuity 2y ago
    Grandparent is making the case that it shouldn't have this role, which is independent of it having the role. It seems contrary to "the hacker spirit" to use the is-ought fallacy to discourage innovation. Is it wrong to have a contrary, if probably doomed to fail, stance to the mainstream? But of course a contrary idea would fail if everyone seeks the mainstream instead of it. To justify sticking to the mainstream, you have to weigh its costs against the benefits of the alternative too.

pjmlp 2y ago

JavaScript should stay confined to the browser, people are solving the wrong problem.

wiseowise 2y ago
As if those things don’t apply to browser.
mu53 2y ago
JS is eating the world. You can fight it like so many people before, but you will lose like everyone else
- datadeft 2y ago
  Same could have sad on any random subject. Examples: - High-fructose corn syrup is eating the world. . You can fight it like so many people before, but you will lose like everyone else - Cancer is eating the world. You can fight it like so many people before, but you will lose like everyone else Etc. I think bad things could be replaced with better things where we have this luxury. Taking a passive stance on this is pointless and lazy.
  - meiraleal 2y ago
    That's because you dislike JS and think it is a problem to solve. That's a you problem. JS is no HFCS, what an absurd comparison.
- pjmlp 2y ago
  Until there are electricity bills from servers to pay. JavaScript on the server, only when I can't say no for whatever reason, like being forced to search for another job as consequence of it. Instead of rewriting JavaScript tools in Zig, Rust, Go, whatever cool compiled language of the month, use the said language directly.
  - pdimitar 2y ago
    I believe all of Zig, Rust and Go have been around for long enough to not deserve the moniker "cool compiled language of the month" though. I do agree that it's time to write frontend not in JS. It has been time for 10+ years even but oh well.
    - DecoySalamander 2y ago
      On the contrary, it's time to move to JS for the UI of desktop applications as well. We've seen this approach become more and more popular with Electron over the last 10 years.
      - pdimitar 2y ago
        If you say so. Take a look at Slack and Teams and tell me that's what a performant and lagless UI feels like. ...Oh? What's that? I am hearing something faint in the distance, like... "their devs are not using JS well", maybe? Tell you what. If a technology can be held wrong, then it's a bad technology. Which, yes, encompasses most technology nowadays. You heard me.
        foldr 2y ago
        But can you point to an app that has the same UX functionality as Slack that's been successfully implemented using Qt or another native toolkit?
        pdimitar 2y ago
        Wish I could but many people gave up and started using Electron due to employability. And we're stuck with crappy laggy UIs. I remember the MirandaIM multi-messenger from 20+ years ago very fondly... 50MB RAM usage and I was signed to 4 services, on a computer that my smartphone today can emulate 16 of, simultaneously, and it was still running faster than you can blink. Ehhhh, good times. Electron/JS is a herd just running in one direction, personified. The fact that something is popular does not imply quality, not at all. Most of the time it implies that everybody settled on it and does not want to hear otherwise for various reasons (in this case: money, as employers are never going to give you the requisite time to build stuff with Qt or others).
- pdimitar 2y ago
  You are not paying attention. WASM's ecosystem is moving slowly but surely in the direction of JS being thrown away for good. Ain't happening anytime soon -- sadly -- but especially with WIT used to specify various modules and collections of modules plus having more or less uniform function specification, the days of JS' monopoly are numbered. The writing is on the wall. There are successful WASM web apps not written in JS today. JS is being tolerated. Not adored. Frontenders are living in a bubble and don't see it.
  - wiseowise 2y ago
    > There are successful WASM web apps not written in JS today. Such as? > JS is being tolerated. Not adored. Can you prove it? I’ve seen enough people of JS being adored. I am one of them (maybe because I use it mostly for hobby projects).
    - BiteCode_dev 2y ago
      If you haven't coded serious projects in at least 5 very different languages, you likely adore one language because you just don't know better. There is such a variation between js, perl, python, rust, C#, lisp, bash, haskell, erlang and sql that the blind spot is huge. It's like eating hot dogs all your life and debating food merits with people that tasted japanese, indian and french food.
      - wiseowise 2y ago
        I’m mixing Python, C++, Java, Kotlin and shell scripting professionally. Used to work on enterprise C# project. Experimented on a hobby level with Elixir, Haskell, OCaml, Ruby, TypeScript, JS, Dart.
        neonsunset 2y ago
        I'm recently enjoying F# a lot. What really sold it was partial application and absolutely bonkers type inference with gradual typing. You just write code and let type system infer the signature of the functions, only specifying the types when necessary. It's so much cleaner and I'm sorely missing it in C#. It's a bit off-topic but if you liked Elixir it's kind of like Elixir but fast, and like OCaml but widely usable in production. It could also be familiar after Python due to mostly indentation-based scoping and not having to define signatures (except you go from something terrible and untyped to Hindley-Milner).
- vacuity 2y ago
  Grandparent is making the case that it shouldn't have this role, which is independent of it having the role. It seems contrary to "the hacker spirit" to use the is-ought fallacy to discourage innovation. Is it wrong to have a contrary, if probably doomed to fail, stance to the mainstream? But of course a contrary idea would fail if everyone seeks the mainstream instead of it. To justify sticking to the mainstream, you have to weigh its costs against the benefits of the alternative too.