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"It has been said that history repeats itself. This is perhaps not quite correct; it merely rhymes." - Theodor Reik The same tragic, traumatic events are being

"It has been said that history repeats itself. This is perhaps not quite correct; it merely rhymes." - Theodor Reik The same tragic, traumatic events are being "rhymed" now in Ukraine. Yeah, perhaps we're tired of hearing it - but I'm writing this because after 110 years of industrialized warfare, our institutions and systems have still not restructured themselves to prevent these cascades of events. The consequences are unspeakably terrible (read the article!). I'll be quite clear about it: a nuclear superpower invaded a disarmed neighbor, and is currently committing genocide on its territory. This is unquestionably, unconscionably, unacceptably wrong. (I won't mention the situation in Gaza, because that situation is far more complex and horrendously polarized.) More than any other profession, many of us - as software developers, mathematicians, scientists - have a better grasp of complex systems. And most of us on HN have a healthy, deeply internalized sense of morality. I really hope some of us will branch out into politics or other power-positions in those institutions, and start knocking people's heads together. I'm constantly - deeply - appalled, at the ghastliness of what's happening right now while we chat, work, and play in our separate worlds. Humanity can do better.

HideousKojima 2y ago
>More than any other profession, many of us - as software developers, mathematicians, scientists - have a better grasp of complex systems. And most of us on HN have a healthy, deeply internalized sense of morality. I really hope some of us will branch out into politics or other power-positions in those institutions, and start knocking people's heads together. Having a good grasp of complex systems doesn't make one avoid the shortcomings that have created modern genocides and industrialized society, etc. In fact I'd argue that deep knowledge of complex systems makes a politician even more competent at causing harm on massive scales. Knowledge does not make one moral.
- jajko 2y ago
  No, but to state it has 0 positive effect is simply not true. Smarter, more knowledgeable people are much harder to manipulate via some trivial emotional tricks. Its not 100% shield, but sure as hell helps a lot. Look who is dying on russian's side in russian war - poor, remote and less educated part of russian society since they are so easy to manipulate - effectively considered disposable subhumans by russian leadershit. Also, smarter folks understand that in hyper-complex structure like our global society, or on smaller nation scale, how good and freedom is something that's rare and practically unique for our current times, and should be protected at (almost) any cost since its loss may not be easily reversible for generations. Simpler folks care only about their own situation, bigger concepts are an afterthought at best. Also, its much easier to spot manipulators and liars, typical populists these days really can't wrap their manipulation in some clever package that requires detailed analysis to unwrap, at least not most of them (and usually that's enough). When you can easily detect lies and twisting of truth you know who you deal with, you can assess both/multiple sides and weight on who is who much closer to actual truth. Morality doesn't become some fancy foreign inconvenient concept but understanding how things that go around come around, always, and how only so you can build strong free society with bright future. And so on.
  - HideousKojima 2y ago
    >Smarter, more knowledgeable people are much harder to manipulate via some trivial emotional tricks. But also much more capable of manipulating others via the same sorts of tricks, that's my point.
verisimi 2y ago
There are so many interpretations of reality. There are also forces that are intentionally directing the messaging in a way that is perceived to be advantageous. This is to say, it's all very well to say one needs to do something, but are you even sure you have the right info? Back to your complex software system, where are you receiving information about the error in a system from, and why are you confident that it actually relays reality in a way that you would agree with? If you are not certain of the signal, why would you want to attempt to reengineer the system? With false information, aren't you bound to make it worse? Anyway, the real problem is parsing out the information in a way that reflects reality - what is presented on screens passes through many filters before it gets to us: corporate, military, governmental, not too mention all the people that are only able to see the world in the way that their education allows.
russiashill111 2y ago
[flagged]
- andyferris 2y ago
  I believe this disarmed part is referring to the nukes Ukraine used to hold, specifically. On the other point, Russia intends to hold the territory and integrate the civilian population they conquer while Israel seems less interested in incorporating Gazans as equal Israeli citizens any time soon. (Not defending Russia but I suspect the different motives lead to different outcomes).
  - eitland 2y ago
    > while Israel seems less interested in incorporating Gazans as equal Israeli citizens any time soon. Israel doesn't want to control Gaza. Israel want to coexist peacefully with it and has been willing to go very far and take risks to achieve that. This is very clear when you study its relation with Egypt, Jordan and Gaza. The fact that Jordan and Egypt has not seen a single attack after they stopped attacking Israel is well known. On the topic of Gaza it seems to be a lot of confusion, but here are some details people often leave out: - Israel voluntarily left Gaza in anticipation of a permanent peace deal - Israel wanted Gaza to succeed and forcefully removed their own people - Israel left infrastructure behind - Israel, in the beginning, had relatively open borders towards Gaza - There was hospital cooperation so people could easily be rushed from Gaza to Israeli hospitals to save lives - Gradually the borders have been closed more and more. Each of these restrictions have a reason written in blood. - Yes, that includes the reasons why ambulances are not allowed to cross into Israel without inspection, Gazan terrorists abused even that opportunity to stage attacks - The border have been restricted more and more thanks to this, but even until 07. of October last year, people could live in Gaza and work in Israel
    - jvdvegt 2y ago
      - Israel left infrastructure behind You mean they decided not to destroy it all? They caused billions of damage to EU funded infrastructure even before they invaded Gaza.
inglor_cz 2y ago
How do you want to prevent something that is ultimately not in your domain of decision. Most wars are started by autocrats under the belief that they can gain something from them. Those beliefs are often false or at least unfounded, but how do you want to change them from the outside? It is no more realistic than changing someone's religion by persuasion - possible, but rare. "Knocking people's heads together" doesn't work on people who have the entire military force of their country at their disposal. Such heads are basically un-knockable. Unfortunately one of the things that the state as an institution is really good at is projection of force; and outside democracies which divide power in a state deliberately, that force usually answers to a single person and their whim, or, at best, a small inner circle of people. And frankly, I trust scientists even less when it comes to politics that anyone else. Khmer Rouge was an academic enterprise. There isn't really a reason why an educated person should have any better sense of morality than a random farmer from the bush. When I look at the activity of the IT giants, it is 50 shades of moral grey underlined by stuffing their pockets and trying to project a cool vibe. It seems to contradict your idea of superior morality in the IT circles.
FpUser 2y ago
>" And most of us on HN have a healthy, deeply internalized sense of morality." Really. I's say sense of delusion. I think that ratio of assholes to normal is about the same in highly educated vs your regular factory workers. >"I really hope some of us will branch out into politics or other power-positions in those institutions, and start knocking people's heads together." Sure. PhD in physics, that's all it takes for politicians to fix everything. This is delirium
- XorNot 2y ago
  The short version is: people get really stupid once they go outside their field of expertise.
- rightbyte 2y ago
  Among academics programmers might have the worst asshole ratio of all. Is there any group that is even close? Maybe there being so much money in programming changed that a bit. It seems like it was worse when people become programmers out of interest mainly.
NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago
> I'll be quite clear about it: a nuclear superpower invaded a disarmed neighbor, and is currently committing genocide on its territory. This is unquestionably, unconscionably, unacceptably wrong. Gee, when you put it like that, why are we waiting to conscript my only son and send him to die in foreign lands?
- beretguy 2y ago
  Foreign lands? We all live on the same planet.
  - FpUser 2y ago
    You can explain it to officers when crossing border without passport and visa.
    - beretguy 2y ago
      They also live on the same planet.
      - NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago
        They're the same insane murder monkeys that all other humans are. This hippy "we're all the same people" shit isn't working, and rather than realize that and move on to solutions that do work, you people just want to double down on it and insist everyone's not trying hard enough. Clinton fucked up. He was a bad president more concerned with getting his dick sucked by interns than doing things correctly. Ukraine should have kept its nukes (some of them, don't need 6000), and if they had none of this would be happening. Maybe Putin would've called the bluff and Moscow would be a glowing crater, but then it would have ended. But I guess he "felt your pain" so that was good right? Enlightened self-interest, and rational strategy. These things save more lives than compassion ever have.
  - NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago
    Kumbaya!
Dilettante_ 2y ago
Yeah, we're way smarter than the common man(and the people in power), we ought to be the ones who control everything! There is no possible way this line of thinking could lead to negative outcomes! >I'll be quite clear about it: a nuclear superpower invaded a disarmed neighbor, and is currently committing genocide on its territory. This is unquestionably, unconscionably, unacceptably wrong. It surely is your amazing grasp of complex systems that allows you to make such a 2-dimensional assessment of the situation. Can I vote for you as World Controller right now?
- fvvybfbfbyg 2y ago
  > allows you to make such a 2-dimensional assessment Surely there were many complex causes which resulted in Germany invading Poland back in 1939, and Poland itself at the time was a deeply flawed state in quite a few ways? So of course you would also say that that event could not be described as “unquestionably, unconscionably, unacceptably wrong”?
ThrowawayR2 2y ago
> "More than any other profession, many of us - as software developers, mathematicians, scientists - have a better grasp of complex systems." Having read various opinions expressed on HN about politics, history, physics, medicine, and so forth, I'm pretty sure that we don't. Coding is not that difficult and many here are quick to say that they learned nothing of use to them in college.
arcbyte 2y ago
Im as firmly in the camp believing Russia needs to ve stopped in Ukraine at all costs as you are, but stop with the genocide claims. It's so obviously not genocide that you are just crying wolf
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- fractallyte 2y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_genocide_of_Ukrainians_in_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_genocide_of_Ukr... I've also read posts from credible people suggesting that worse things are happening on territories still under Russian occupation. If those (unconfirmed) rumors are true, they would be the horrifying atrocities with genocidal intent since WW2.

HideousKojima 2y ago

>More than any other profession, many of us - as software developers, mathematicians, scientists - have a better grasp of complex systems. And most of us on HN have a healthy, deeply internalized sense of morality. I really hope some of us will branch out into politics or other power-positions in those institutions, and start knocking people's heads together. Having a good grasp of complex systems doesn't make one avoid the shortcomings that have created modern genocides and industrialized society, etc. In fact I'd argue that deep knowledge of complex systems makes a politician even more competent at causing harm on massive scales. Knowledge does not make one moral.

jajko 2y ago
No, but to state it has 0 positive effect is simply not true. Smarter, more knowledgeable people are much harder to manipulate via some trivial emotional tricks. Its not 100% shield, but sure as hell helps a lot. Look who is dying on russian's side in russian war - poor, remote and less educated part of russian society since they are so easy to manipulate - effectively considered disposable subhumans by russian leadershit. Also, smarter folks understand that in hyper-complex structure like our global society, or on smaller nation scale, how good and freedom is something that's rare and practically unique for our current times, and should be protected at (almost) any cost since its loss may not be easily reversible for generations. Simpler folks care only about their own situation, bigger concepts are an afterthought at best. Also, its much easier to spot manipulators and liars, typical populists these days really can't wrap their manipulation in some clever package that requires detailed analysis to unwrap, at least not most of them (and usually that's enough). When you can easily detect lies and twisting of truth you know who you deal with, you can assess both/multiple sides and weight on who is who much closer to actual truth. Morality doesn't become some fancy foreign inconvenient concept but understanding how things that go around come around, always, and how only so you can build strong free society with bright future. And so on.
- HideousKojima 2y ago
  >Smarter, more knowledgeable people are much harder to manipulate via some trivial emotional tricks. But also much more capable of manipulating others via the same sorts of tricks, that's my point.

verisimi 2y ago

There are so many interpretations of reality. There are also forces that are intentionally directing the messaging in a way that is perceived to be advantageous. This is to say, it's all very well to say one needs to do something, but are you even sure you have the right info? Back to your complex software system, where are you receiving information about the error in a system from, and why are you confident that it actually relays reality in a way that you would agree with? If you are not certain of the signal, why would you want to attempt to reengineer the system? With false information, aren't you bound to make it worse? Anyway, the real problem is parsing out the information in a way that reflects reality - what is presented on screens passes through many filters before it gets to us: corporate, military, governmental, not too mention all the people that are only able to see the world in the way that their education allows.

russiashill111 2y ago

[flagged]

andyferris 2y ago
I believe this disarmed part is referring to the nukes Ukraine used to hold, specifically. On the other point, Russia intends to hold the territory and integrate the civilian population they conquer while Israel seems less interested in incorporating Gazans as equal Israeli citizens any time soon. (Not defending Russia but I suspect the different motives lead to different outcomes).
- eitland 2y ago
  > while Israel seems less interested in incorporating Gazans as equal Israeli citizens any time soon. Israel doesn't want to control Gaza. Israel want to coexist peacefully with it and has been willing to go very far and take risks to achieve that. This is very clear when you study its relation with Egypt, Jordan and Gaza. The fact that Jordan and Egypt has not seen a single attack after they stopped attacking Israel is well known. On the topic of Gaza it seems to be a lot of confusion, but here are some details people often leave out: - Israel voluntarily left Gaza in anticipation of a permanent peace deal - Israel wanted Gaza to succeed and forcefully removed their own people - Israel left infrastructure behind - Israel, in the beginning, had relatively open borders towards Gaza - There was hospital cooperation so people could easily be rushed from Gaza to Israeli hospitals to save lives - Gradually the borders have been closed more and more. Each of these restrictions have a reason written in blood. - Yes, that includes the reasons why ambulances are not allowed to cross into Israel without inspection, Gazan terrorists abused even that opportunity to stage attacks - The border have been restricted more and more thanks to this, but even until 07. of October last year, people could live in Gaza and work in Israel
  - jvdvegt 2y ago
    - Israel left infrastructure behind You mean they decided not to destroy it all? They caused billions of damage to EU funded infrastructure even before they invaded Gaza.

inglor_cz 2y ago

How do you want to prevent something that is ultimately not in your domain of decision. Most wars are started by autocrats under the belief that they can gain something from them. Those beliefs are often false or at least unfounded, but how do you want to change them from the outside? It is no more realistic than changing someone's religion by persuasion - possible, but rare. "Knocking people's heads together" doesn't work on people who have the entire military force of their country at their disposal. Such heads are basically un-knockable. Unfortunately one of the things that the state as an institution is really good at is projection of force; and outside democracies which divide power in a state deliberately, that force usually answers to a single person and their whim, or, at best, a small inner circle of people. And frankly, I trust scientists even less when it comes to politics that anyone else. Khmer Rouge was an academic enterprise. There isn't really a reason why an educated person should have any better sense of morality than a random farmer from the bush. When I look at the activity of the IT giants, it is 50 shades of moral grey underlined by stuffing their pockets and trying to project a cool vibe. It seems to contradict your idea of superior morality in the IT circles.

FpUser 2y ago

>" And most of us on HN have a healthy, deeply internalized sense of morality." Really. I's say sense of delusion. I think that ratio of assholes to normal is about the same in highly educated vs your regular factory workers. >"I really hope some of us will branch out into politics or other power-positions in those institutions, and start knocking people's heads together." Sure. PhD in physics, that's all it takes for politicians to fix everything. This is delirium

XorNot 2y ago
The short version is: people get really stupid once they go outside their field of expertise.
rightbyte 2y ago
Among academics programmers might have the worst asshole ratio of all. Is there any group that is even close? Maybe there being so much money in programming changed that a bit. It seems like it was worse when people become programmers out of interest mainly.

NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago

> I'll be quite clear about it: a nuclear superpower invaded a disarmed neighbor, and is currently committing genocide on its territory. This is unquestionably, unconscionably, unacceptably wrong. Gee, when you put it like that, why are we waiting to conscript my only son and send him to die in foreign lands?

beretguy 2y ago
Foreign lands? We all live on the same planet.
- FpUser 2y ago
  You can explain it to officers when crossing border without passport and visa.
  - beretguy 2y ago
    They also live on the same planet.
    - NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago
      They're the same insane murder monkeys that all other humans are. This hippy "we're all the same people" shit isn't working, and rather than realize that and move on to solutions that do work, you people just want to double down on it and insist everyone's not trying hard enough. Clinton fucked up. He was a bad president more concerned with getting his dick sucked by interns than doing things correctly. Ukraine should have kept its nukes (some of them, don't need 6000), and if they had none of this would be happening. Maybe Putin would've called the bluff and Moscow would be a glowing crater, but then it would have ended. But I guess he "felt your pain" so that was good right? Enlightened self-interest, and rational strategy. These things save more lives than compassion ever have.
- NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago
  Kumbaya!

Dilettante_ 2y ago

Yeah, we're way smarter than the common man(and the people in power), we ought to be the ones who control everything! There is no possible way this line of thinking could lead to negative outcomes! >I'll be quite clear about it: a nuclear superpower invaded a disarmed neighbor, and is currently committing genocide on its territory. This is unquestionably, unconscionably, unacceptably wrong. It surely is your amazing grasp of complex systems that allows you to make such a 2-dimensional assessment of the situation. Can I vote for you as World Controller right now?

fvvybfbfbyg 2y ago
> allows you to make such a 2-dimensional assessment Surely there were many complex causes which resulted in Germany invading Poland back in 1939, and Poland itself at the time was a deeply flawed state in quite a few ways? So of course you would also say that that event could not be described as “unquestionably, unconscionably, unacceptably wrong”?

ThrowawayR2 2y ago

> "More than any other profession, many of us - as software developers, mathematicians, scientists - have a better grasp of complex systems." Having read various opinions expressed on HN about politics, history, physics, medicine, and so forth, I'm pretty sure that we don't. Coding is not that difficult and many here are quick to say that they learned nothing of use to them in college.

arcbyte 2y ago

Im as firmly in the camp believing Russia needs to ve stopped in Ukraine at all costs as you are, but stop with the genocide claims. It's so obviously not genocide that you are just crying wolf

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
fractallyte 2y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_genocide_of_Ukrainians_in_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_genocide_of_Ukr... I've also read posts from credible people suggesting that worse things are happening on territories still under Russian occupation. If those (unconfirmed) rumors are true, they would be the horrifying atrocities with genocidal intent since WW2.