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It is indeed a human flaw, and a futuristic society would be designed to take this into account instead of blindly relying on faith and acting surprised, repeat

It is indeed a human flaw, and a futuristic society would be designed to take this into account instead of blindly relying on faith and acting surprised, repeatedly, when it fails. Capitalism increasingly incentivizes (and normalizes) deception as it struggles to squeeze the remaining profits, since the rest have trended toward zero as Marx warned they would. From this stems "enshitification" and other perverse incentives like influencer culture, etc. An ideal society of the future would allow all information to be freely available. All structures of organization would be transparent, and commonly agreed upon goals would take precedence above all else, instead of the goals dictated by the .01 or .001 percent. https://jacobin.com/2019/03/sam-gindin-socialist-planning-models https://jacobin.com/2019/03/sam-gindin-socialist-planning-mo...

lukan 2y ago
"An ideal society of the future would allow all information to be freely available." Total surveillance? Or only all technical information? But transparency of all the organisations, so all the police information as well? So the murder suspects knows, where the police is looking for them? (Or won't there be a need for a police like organisations because murder is also somehow solved?) My point is, devil is in the details. And Marx is not someone I would go for inspiration. Marxist organisations are not so known for their transparency btw. Also, I really don't believe that the problem is a human flaw. I don't want to change humans. (It happens naturally anyway). But I do believe, that we can create better societies, that serves us better, the way we are. It is just hard, to create them from scratch for various reasons, but many people are trying and some quite succesful.
- swed420 2y ago
  Crime would be a fraction of what it is now due to a massive shifting in incentives and societal landscape, and probably dealt with very differently when it does occur instead of turning it into its own for-profit industry (with some of the lowest paid labor among prisoners). Knee jerk reactionary notions of "justice" begin to look very primitive through a materialist lens. > Marxist organisations are not so known for their transparency btw. Marxism offers a timeless framework and does not require subscriptions or other grifts. That the latter exists does not invalidate the former. It's just example 100539 of what my previous reply was getting at. > I don't want to change humans. Humans deserve better opportunities than most presently have, and than most will seemingly have on our current trajectory into late stage capitalist madness. We should acknowledge/embrace our flaws to see commonality (which is different than being ashamed, proud of, or profiting off of them).
  - lukan 2y ago
    "Marxism offers a timeless framework and does not require subscriptions or other grifts." Just like the bible, a holy work of truth, you just have to believe in? "Crime would be a fraction of what it is now due to a massive shifting in incentives and societal landscape" Because as far as I know, all the marxist experiments did not result in less crime, or corruption, rather the opposite. So why should I believe, that the next marxist experiments will work out any better? Was there a major update recently, that fixed the flaws? (To clarify, to me the choice is not at all between capitalism and marxism, humans are capable of a bit more flexibility)
    - swed420 2y ago
      > Just like the bible, a holy work of truth, you just have to believe in? In ways which are commonly agreed upon as useful, yes. In the case of the bible it cannot be interpreted literally. But abstract concepts, like that every human contains the capacity for good and evil, absolutely. In fact that's what we're discussing. > Because as far as I know, all the marxist experiments did not result in less crime, or corruption, rather the opposite. So why should I believe, that the next marxist experiments will work out any better? Was there a major update recently, that fixed the flaws? Assuming you aren't drinking the sinophobia Kool Aide, which is an admittedly big assumption, have you looked at what China has been able to accomplish in recent decades? Not perfect obviously, nothing is, but they're in different league compared to the crumbling empire of the US.
      - lukan 2y ago
        "But abstract concepts, like that every human contains the capacity for good and evil, absolutely. In fact that's what we're discussing." I see. Well, I strongly disagree to the arbitary dividing of the world in good and evil. In fact, the whole "capitalism is the root of all evil" reminds me strongly of what was the devils doing before. All the bad just happens, because there is this evil force. In my opinion, this is good ideology for controlling people - we are the good side - they are evil ones. And don't you dare question our side - then you are evil. Still a surprise, that you see china as a positive force here.

lukan 2y ago

"An ideal society of the future would allow all information to be freely available." Total surveillance? Or only all technical information? But transparency of all the organisations, so all the police information as well? So the murder suspects knows, where the police is looking for them? (Or won't there be a need for a police like organisations because murder is also somehow solved?) My point is, devil is in the details. And Marx is not someone I would go for inspiration. Marxist organisations are not so known for their transparency btw. Also, I really don't believe that the problem is a human flaw. I don't want to change humans. (It happens naturally anyway). But I do believe, that we can create better societies, that serves us better, the way we are. It is just hard, to create them from scratch for various reasons, but many people are trying and some quite succesful.

swed420 2y ago
Crime would be a fraction of what it is now due to a massive shifting in incentives and societal landscape, and probably dealt with very differently when it does occur instead of turning it into its own for-profit industry (with some of the lowest paid labor among prisoners). Knee jerk reactionary notions of "justice" begin to look very primitive through a materialist lens. > Marxist organisations are not so known for their transparency btw. Marxism offers a timeless framework and does not require subscriptions or other grifts. That the latter exists does not invalidate the former. It's just example 100539 of what my previous reply was getting at. > I don't want to change humans. Humans deserve better opportunities than most presently have, and than most will seemingly have on our current trajectory into late stage capitalist madness. We should acknowledge/embrace our flaws to see commonality (which is different than being ashamed, proud of, or profiting off of them).
- lukan 2y ago
  "Marxism offers a timeless framework and does not require subscriptions or other grifts." Just like the bible, a holy work of truth, you just have to believe in? "Crime would be a fraction of what it is now due to a massive shifting in incentives and societal landscape" Because as far as I know, all the marxist experiments did not result in less crime, or corruption, rather the opposite. So why should I believe, that the next marxist experiments will work out any better? Was there a major update recently, that fixed the flaws? (To clarify, to me the choice is not at all between capitalism and marxism, humans are capable of a bit more flexibility)
  - swed420 2y ago
    > Just like the bible, a holy work of truth, you just have to believe in? In ways which are commonly agreed upon as useful, yes. In the case of the bible it cannot be interpreted literally. But abstract concepts, like that every human contains the capacity for good and evil, absolutely. In fact that's what we're discussing. > Because as far as I know, all the marxist experiments did not result in less crime, or corruption, rather the opposite. So why should I believe, that the next marxist experiments will work out any better? Was there a major update recently, that fixed the flaws? Assuming you aren't drinking the sinophobia Kool Aide, which is an admittedly big assumption, have you looked at what China has been able to accomplish in recent decades? Not perfect obviously, nothing is, but they're in different league compared to the crumbling empire of the US.
    - lukan 2y ago
      "But abstract concepts, like that every human contains the capacity for good and evil, absolutely. In fact that's what we're discussing." I see. Well, I strongly disagree to the arbitary dividing of the world in good and evil. In fact, the whole "capitalism is the root of all evil" reminds me strongly of what was the devils doing before. All the bad just happens, because there is this evil force. In my opinion, this is good ideology for controlling people - we are the good side - they are evil ones. And don't you dare question our side - then you are evil. Still a surprise, that you see china as a positive force here.