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> You expect to not be responsible for what happens to the software you put into production? First: IT seems to be rather the exception - most professions have

> You expect to not be responsible for what happens to the software you put into production? First: IT seems to be rather the exception - most professions have no on-call. Eg. even if my car mechanic screws up a service job, they'll have me bring the car back into the garage during their normal working hours, regardless of how and where stranded I am in the middle of the night. A second comment: I'll be responsible for anything I have created in my own way. The reality of software development is that we implement functional requirements we've been given with which we disagree, we implement non-functional requirements which don't achieve the goal, we are made to use frameworks and tools we're not familiar with, on a short timeline, a low budget and inadequate infrastructure and we're supposed to take responsibility for code our co-workers wrote.

mikeocool 2y ago
> IT seems to be rather the exception I think there’s actually a fair number of jobs where some level of this is expected. Doctors are one obvious example — they have on call responsibilities often more onerous than IT, and depending on the situation don’t always receive additional compensation for it. If you manage people who work different hours from you, in a lot of jobs it’s not uncommon to be called in if shit hits the fan when you’re not working (for example if you’re a hotel manager, to just name one). I’ve found that any good lawyer I’ve worked with will answer my calls and help me work through things at basically any time of day (their firm might be billing me for the time, but that doesn’t necessarily directly translate to their comp). Lots of reporters are expected to cover news that breaks on their beat, no matter when it happens.
- quicklime 2y ago
  > Doctors are one obvious example — they have on call responsibilities often more onerous than IT, and depending on the situation don’t always receive additional compensation for it. My doctor (primary care physician) doesn’t work outside of business hours. In an emergency the recorded message says to call an ambulance and go to the emergency department at the hospital, which is staffed by a different set of people. So it seems they do have at least some separation of the oncall aspect? Lawyers are another story, there’s a lot of things wrong with that profession and we shouldn’t be trying to copy them.
  - mikeocool 2y ago
    If you go to most hospitals at 2AM and need a specialist of some kind (say a specific type of surgeon), there’s going to be someone in that specialty on call whose going to get paged to wake up, come in, and see you. Even in family practice, it’s not uncommon to be able to get a call back from the on call doctor at the practice on weekends or off hours — if you’ve got a situation that maybe doesn’t warrant the ER, but you’re not sure if it can wait until Monday.
    - bsder 2y ago
      > If you go to most hospitals at 2AM and need a specialist of some kind (say a specific type of surgeon), there’s going to be someone in that specialty on call whose going to get paged to wake up, come in, and see you. Only if you're dying. Come in late Friday and you're going to be sitting in a bed until Monday even if your gall bladder is about to explode.
      - mikeocool 2y ago
        Sorry, you’re right. Doctors have it way easier than software engineers.
        bsder 2y ago
        Sarcasm simply serves to undermine any valid points that you have. The point was that "on call" is specifically confined as an expectation only to certain types of doctors or under very urgent circumstances. In addition, doctors have extra special dysfunctions like "too many hours in a shift". However, many of these are because doctors also have been fighting various efforts to teach more of them which would enable distributing the required extra labor across more people.
        doubleg72 2y ago
        Funny, my wife is primary care yet does on call via answering service. You clearly don’t know what you’re talking about.
- shafyy 2y ago
  > Doctors are one obvious example — they have on call responsibilities often more onerous than IT, and depending on the situation don’t always receive additional compensation for it. I mean.... On call doctors literally save lives. Most on-call software engineers don't. So.
  - bloppe 2y ago
    But think of the shareholders!
bloppe 2y ago
Doctors, firemen and cops are obvious examples, but I've called plumbers at 2am because of a burst pipe flooding the basement. I've called locksmiths well past closing time due to lockout. I've called landlords at all hours for apartment emergencies. Society needs on-callers of all kinds. It's not surprising that some people are vociferously against holding the pager, and I sincerely wish those people success in avoiding it. But someone will always have to step up and they should be appropriately rewarded for it (I've been on-call and was considered lucky to have gotten overtime for it, which I think is strange because it's just a well-aligned incentive structure that any smart company should have)

mikeocool 2y ago

> IT seems to be rather the exception I think there’s actually a fair number of jobs where some level of this is expected. Doctors are one obvious example — they have on call responsibilities often more onerous than IT, and depending on the situation don’t always receive additional compensation for it. If you manage people who work different hours from you, in a lot of jobs it’s not uncommon to be called in if shit hits the fan when you’re not working (for example if you’re a hotel manager, to just name one). I’ve found that any good lawyer I’ve worked with will answer my calls and help me work through things at basically any time of day (their firm might be billing me for the time, but that doesn’t necessarily directly translate to their comp). Lots of reporters are expected to cover news that breaks on their beat, no matter when it happens.

quicklime 2y ago
> Doctors are one obvious example — they have on call responsibilities often more onerous than IT, and depending on the situation don’t always receive additional compensation for it. My doctor (primary care physician) doesn’t work outside of business hours. In an emergency the recorded message says to call an ambulance and go to the emergency department at the hospital, which is staffed by a different set of people. So it seems they do have at least some separation of the oncall aspect? Lawyers are another story, there’s a lot of things wrong with that profession and we shouldn’t be trying to copy them.
- mikeocool 2y ago
  If you go to most hospitals at 2AM and need a specialist of some kind (say a specific type of surgeon), there’s going to be someone in that specialty on call whose going to get paged to wake up, come in, and see you. Even in family practice, it’s not uncommon to be able to get a call back from the on call doctor at the practice on weekends or off hours — if you’ve got a situation that maybe doesn’t warrant the ER, but you’re not sure if it can wait until Monday.
  - bsder 2y ago
    > If you go to most hospitals at 2AM and need a specialist of some kind (say a specific type of surgeon), there’s going to be someone in that specialty on call whose going to get paged to wake up, come in, and see you. Only if you're dying. Come in late Friday and you're going to be sitting in a bed until Monday even if your gall bladder is about to explode.
    - mikeocool 2y ago
      Sorry, you’re right. Doctors have it way easier than software engineers.
      - bsder 2y ago
        Sarcasm simply serves to undermine any valid points that you have. The point was that "on call" is specifically confined as an expectation only to certain types of doctors or under very urgent circumstances. In addition, doctors have extra special dysfunctions like "too many hours in a shift". However, many of these are because doctors also have been fighting various efforts to teach more of them which would enable distributing the required extra labor across more people.
        doubleg72 2y ago
        Funny, my wife is primary care yet does on call via answering service. You clearly don’t know what you’re talking about.
shafyy 2y ago
> Doctors are one obvious example — they have on call responsibilities often more onerous than IT, and depending on the situation don’t always receive additional compensation for it. I mean.... On call doctors literally save lives. Most on-call software engineers don't. So.
- bloppe 2y ago
  But think of the shareholders!

bloppe 2y ago

Doctors, firemen and cops are obvious examples, but I've called plumbers at 2am because of a burst pipe flooding the basement. I've called locksmiths well past closing time due to lockout. I've called landlords at all hours for apartment emergencies. Society needs on-callers of all kinds. It's not surprising that some people are vociferously against holding the pager, and I sincerely wish those people success in avoiding it. But someone will always have to step up and they should be appropriately rewarded for it (I've been on-call and was considered lucky to have gotten overtime for it, which I think is strange because it's just a well-aligned incentive structure that any smart company should have)