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Good code is not written in a democratic way. Seems like Hocko was wearing Kent down with his arguments on what was a very bad idea in the first place. I agree

Good code is not written in a democratic way. Seems like Hocko was wearing Kent down with his arguments on what was a very bad idea in the first place. I agree the last sentence by Kent was not needed, but I can totally understand his frustration. I think it’s a loss for the users at the end on the day.

okl 2y ago
> Good code is not written in a democratic way [citation needed] In case anyone's looking for that last sentence (quoting Kent here, not my words): > Get your head examined. And get the fuck out of here with this shit. https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/citv2v6f33hoidq75xd2spaqxf7nl5wbmmzma4wgmrwpoqidhj@k453tmq7vdrk/ https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/citv2v6f33hoidq75xd2spaqxf7nl5w...
- noncoml 2y ago
  > [citation needed] IMHO
  - deepnet 2y ago
    Code communities are very democratic, they produce good code and good coders. Democracy is good governance not a dictatorship of a majority. A benevolent dictatorship is said to be a most efficient form of government, until it ushers in a non-benevolent dictatorship. Democracy is not perfect but relatively sustainable in that there is a peaceful mechanism for change and a means of consensus. Small communities don’t need too many rules but in time as they grow it becomes necessary.
RandomThoughts3 2y ago
Kent is only prevented to merge for a version and mostly because he refused to actually apologise and kind of dig his heels. Reading his comment on LWN, he seems really really tired. A mandatory break doesn’t look like the worst thing which would happen to him. I don’t think he is a bad person.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- koverstreet 2y ago
  tired would not be inaccurate
  - RandomThoughts3 2y ago
    Sorry for the poor grammar, I meant could and not would and I hope you took my comment as good intended (it was). I value your contribution a lot. Reading you just reminds me of myself when I had postponed time off far too long at a previous job. I hope you don’t take it too badly and see the occasion as a good time to take a step back and rest even if it’s not your choice.
deepnet 2y ago
Arguably a win for the community of users in the long term as those developers who would like a safe environment, more akin to a professional one, will be encouraged to contribute. In the short term Ken will have to wait for the time out to end, so a loss for sure. On balance the future is bigger than the present so suffering today for a better future is utilitarian. And there are a lot of sensitive folk who have been scared off of communities by what they saw. In this thread a couple have commented about the pre CoC community, that they would have contributed but for the fear of getting barked at. As a younger dev I bailed on some IRC communities after getting weirdly threatened. Frustration after being very patient with one’s donated time and feeling unreciprocated can lead to frayed nerves and in the short term being rude is brief and often effective - so it is very understandable that this sort of thing will arise. Good to discuss how we handle these difficult situations of onboarding newbies without scaring some of the lurking next generation of devs. As a headline this penalty seems harsh, but efforts were made to mediate before the committee made the ruling and proved unsuccessful. This process is defining the future culture of the kernel code community and it is widely accepted that it should be less toxic and more welcoming and akin to what is expected in a professional context where most devs also function and also have to patiently onboard new developers. There may be room for improvement of the process, for instance, like in many settings the burden of patient onboarding may need to fall on a community process with an onboarding ramp that doesn’t fall only on the shoulders of those accepting patches. As a community it behooves us to step in earlier and help new devs polish their contributions before submission. Especially if we see a fraustration brewing, step in and offer code review to the new developers, who want to contribute, but need some guidance. Often just guidance about the right questions to ask and where and how to find the answers oneself before asking. The eternal September doesn’t have to be so, offering to help with onboarding a new dev helps everyone.
- LtWorf 2y ago
  Professional environments are terrible. Why do you think there's an abundance of films like "mayhem" and others, showing how dehumanising the "professional environment" is?
  - deepnet 2y ago

okl 2y ago

> Good code is not written in a democratic way [citation needed] In case anyone's looking for that last sentence (quoting Kent here, not my words): > Get your head examined. And get the fuck out of here with this shit. https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/citv2v6f33hoidq75xd2spaqxf7nl5wbmmzma4wgmrwpoqidhj@k453tmq7vdrk/ https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/citv2v6f33hoidq75xd2spaqxf7nl5w...

noncoml 2y ago
> [citation needed] IMHO
- deepnet 2y ago
  Code communities are very democratic, they produce good code and good coders. Democracy is good governance not a dictatorship of a majority. A benevolent dictatorship is said to be a most efficient form of government, until it ushers in a non-benevolent dictatorship. Democracy is not perfect but relatively sustainable in that there is a peaceful mechanism for change and a means of consensus. Small communities don’t need too many rules but in time as they grow it becomes necessary.

RandomThoughts3 2y ago

Kent is only prevented to merge for a version and mostly because he refused to actually apologise and kind of dig his heels. Reading his comment on LWN, he seems really really tired. A mandatory break doesn’t look like the worst thing which would happen to him. I don’t think he is a bad person.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
koverstreet 2y ago
tired would not be inaccurate
- RandomThoughts3 2y ago
  Sorry for the poor grammar, I meant could and not would and I hope you took my comment as good intended (it was). I value your contribution a lot. Reading you just reminds me of myself when I had postponed time off far too long at a previous job. I hope you don’t take it too badly and see the occasion as a good time to take a step back and rest even if it’s not your choice.

deepnet 2y ago

Arguably a win for the community of users in the long term as those developers who would like a safe environment, more akin to a professional one, will be encouraged to contribute. In the short term Ken will have to wait for the time out to end, so a loss for sure. On balance the future is bigger than the present so suffering today for a better future is utilitarian. And there are a lot of sensitive folk who have been scared off of communities by what they saw. In this thread a couple have commented about the pre CoC community, that they would have contributed but for the fear of getting barked at. As a younger dev I bailed on some IRC communities after getting weirdly threatened. Frustration after being very patient with one’s donated time and feeling unreciprocated can lead to frayed nerves and in the short term being rude is brief and often effective - so it is very understandable that this sort of thing will arise. Good to discuss how we handle these difficult situations of onboarding newbies without scaring some of the lurking next generation of devs. As a headline this penalty seems harsh, but efforts were made to mediate before the committee made the ruling and proved unsuccessful. This process is defining the future culture of the kernel code community and it is widely accepted that it should be less toxic and more welcoming and akin to what is expected in a professional context where most devs also function and also have to patiently onboard new developers. There may be room for improvement of the process, for instance, like in many settings the burden of patient onboarding may need to fall on a community process with an onboarding ramp that doesn’t fall only on the shoulders of those accepting patches. As a community it behooves us to step in earlier and help new devs polish their contributions before submission. Especially if we see a fraustration brewing, step in and offer code review to the new developers, who want to contribute, but need some guidance. Often just guidance about the right questions to ask and where and how to find the answers oneself before asking. The eternal September doesn’t have to be so, offering to help with onboarding a new dev helps everyone.

LtWorf 2y ago
Professional environments are terrible. Why do you think there's an abundance of films like "mayhem" and others, showing how dehumanising the "professional environment" is?
- deepnet 2y ago