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My pay cut was only around 15%, but I also wasn't working for a large company, and was apparently underpaid by around 20%. This will come of a spoiled and privi

My pay cut was only around 15%, but I also wasn't working for a large company, and was apparently underpaid by around 20%. This will come of a spoiled and privileged, but I honestly have no idea how we'd make our day to day life work if I didn't work from home, with incredibly flexible hours. Getting children ready for school and pick them up at a reasonable hour, without stress just isn't possible. You have to drop off your children in some kind of care before their even fully awake, and you need to pick them up almost before you get out of the office. Obviously people make it work, but I have no idea what kind of hours other people work, because doing a pick up at 16:30 would mean that my child would be the last one in the day care. In any case I don't see the point in tolerating the stress of traffic, school/day care, or just regular difficulties getting your daily tasks to fit in with a 8-16 job at an office. I have a family member that works at a hospital, she can't get her car service for four weeks because there's no available time to drop of the car and pick it up afterwards, which also fits with the mechanic. I can normally get appointments for mechanics, doctors, dentists, contractors, everything, with a few days notice because I can be incredibly flexible with my time.

bwanab 2y ago
Only two ways that I know of that can make it work: 1) one parent needs to stay at home, or 2) hire a nanny. Both of those come with considerable costs.
- mrweasel 2y ago
  While I apparently where underpaid, my boss and I had a pretty good relationship, but he didn't think a 50+% pay raise, so my wife could stay at home, was realistic, but I did ask. My wife's boss recommended getting an au pair, she pointed out that he's aware of how much she makes, and that it was a stupid suggestion that he know that we wouldn't be able to afford that.
- ghaff 2y ago
  Historically, you had grandparents or other extended family (which was the case when I was growing up with two working parents). But that's far less common in the US today.
- james_marks 2y ago
  Also other families that are in the same boat and trade pickup days, etc. This is also how you build community, so has many benefits beyond cost.
  - bwanab 2y ago
    Good point!
rachofsunshine 2y ago
This is pretty close to the average value engineers place on a remote job. In our data set, the on-paper gap is about 18% (~37k on ~200k) if you just compare remote to non-remote, but given that the remote candidates often live in lower-COL areas, some of that probably comes from COL and not purely value placed on remote work. The real driver is that ~half of engineers only want remote work, and the vast majority of the remainder aren't in whatever city you're hiring in.
- mrweasel 2y ago
  I get that businesses are about profit and not much more, but I do find it interesting that it doesn't really register that people, given that option, choose to live in very diverse locations. Some companies don't have the choice. If you need people to come in and operate machines, do manufacturing, care for others and similar, then you often need your employees to commute. If you don't need that, why wouldn't you hire the best qualified person, even if that person prefers to live in the Mojave desert?
  - rachofsunshine 2y ago
    Well, I do, that's why my company is remote. But if I were to play devil's advocate? - Because you think the apparently qualified person in the Mojave desert might be a fraudulent person who doesn't exist. - Because you think the apparently qualified person in the Mojave desert might be interviewing for jobs they intend to quietly outsource, possibly to people worse than themselves and definitely in ways that create security risks. - Because you think the random overheard conversations and water-cooler factor of in-office work has enough benefits to compensate for nominally lower qualifications. - Because you think you're not perfect at detecting low-quality work and think remote employees might take the opportunity to slack off in ways they wouldn't in an office. - Because you think it creates additional security risks by removing the implicit air-gapping of having to physically be in an office to handle sensitive information. - Because you and your current employees actually like being in-office and having that cultural cohesion, and you don't think you can get it remotely. ...or any number of other reasons. Like, I get that people like remote work. I do too. But the moralizing of RTO is...just incorrect, I think? There are practical arguments against it (I literally wrote a few thousand words to that effect not long ago - see my most recent HN submission), but that's an entirely different class of objection than the idea that it's just about middle managers wanting to breathe down your neck.
vundercind 2y ago
Relatives, or illegal daycares. Or relatives who run illegal daycares. I think that’s how folks make it work.
- klooney 2y ago
  There's a huge class divide in affordability. Unlicensed childcare, home remodeling, etc., is wildly cheaper.
  - vundercind 2y ago
    Yeah, you don’t send your preschoolers to the Montessori school with five acres of woods for $300-600/wk, you send them to your cousin’s friend’s row house with a couple Wal-mart play structures in the chain link fenced back yard for like $120/wk. Places folks with software jobs never even hear of.
    - klooney 2y ago
      I watched cartoons on a dirty floor in a random house before school, I basically came out fine.
insane_dreamer 2y ago
Not to mention that you’re putting your corporate boss’ well being above that of your children who have to cope with those circumstances. I’m willing to deal with the commute. I’m not willing to let my kids take the hit.
lorax 2y ago
When I was doing this, I went in a bit later and dropped the kids off and my spouse went in a bit earlier and picked them up. They were neither the first ones in nor the last ones out. My commute was worst case 20 minutes, that also helped. It worked fine (except when spouse was traveling), but WFH Is much easier.
nkrisc 2y ago
> This will come of a spoiled and privileged, but I honestly have no idea how we'd make our day to day life work if I didn't work from home, with incredibly flexible hours. I don't think it's spoiled, I think you're spot on. Yeah, it's hard. And yes, you (and me and probably many others reading here) are privileged. > Obviously people make it work And yeah, they usually make it work, and it sucks. Or if they can't make it work then maybe a spouse or partner has to quit their job to handle that stuff and take care of the kids and then they have to get by with even less income.

bwanab 2y ago

Only two ways that I know of that can make it work: 1) one parent needs to stay at home, or 2) hire a nanny. Both of those come with considerable costs.

mrweasel 2y ago
While I apparently where underpaid, my boss and I had a pretty good relationship, but he didn't think a 50+% pay raise, so my wife could stay at home, was realistic, but I did ask. My wife's boss recommended getting an au pair, she pointed out that he's aware of how much she makes, and that it was a stupid suggestion that he know that we wouldn't be able to afford that.
ghaff 2y ago
Historically, you had grandparents or other extended family (which was the case when I was growing up with two working parents). But that's far less common in the US today.
james_marks 2y ago
Also other families that are in the same boat and trade pickup days, etc. This is also how you build community, so has many benefits beyond cost.
- bwanab 2y ago
  Good point!

rachofsunshine 2y ago

This is pretty close to the average value engineers place on a remote job. In our data set, the on-paper gap is about 18% (~37k on ~200k) if you just compare remote to non-remote, but given that the remote candidates often live in lower-COL areas, some of that probably comes from COL and not purely value placed on remote work. The real driver is that ~half of engineers only want remote work, and the vast majority of the remainder aren't in whatever city you're hiring in.

mrweasel 2y ago
I get that businesses are about profit and not much more, but I do find it interesting that it doesn't really register that people, given that option, choose to live in very diverse locations. Some companies don't have the choice. If you need people to come in and operate machines, do manufacturing, care for others and similar, then you often need your employees to commute. If you don't need that, why wouldn't you hire the best qualified person, even if that person prefers to live in the Mojave desert?
- rachofsunshine 2y ago
  Well, I do, that's why my company is remote. But if I were to play devil's advocate? - Because you think the apparently qualified person in the Mojave desert might be a fraudulent person who doesn't exist. - Because you think the apparently qualified person in the Mojave desert might be interviewing for jobs they intend to quietly outsource, possibly to people worse than themselves and definitely in ways that create security risks. - Because you think the random overheard conversations and water-cooler factor of in-office work has enough benefits to compensate for nominally lower qualifications. - Because you think you're not perfect at detecting low-quality work and think remote employees might take the opportunity to slack off in ways they wouldn't in an office. - Because you think it creates additional security risks by removing the implicit air-gapping of having to physically be in an office to handle sensitive information. - Because you and your current employees actually like being in-office and having that cultural cohesion, and you don't think you can get it remotely. ...or any number of other reasons. Like, I get that people like remote work. I do too. But the moralizing of RTO is...just incorrect, I think? There are practical arguments against it (I literally wrote a few thousand words to that effect not long ago - see my most recent HN submission), but that's an entirely different class of objection than the idea that it's just about middle managers wanting to breathe down your neck.

vundercind 2y ago

Relatives, or illegal daycares. Or relatives who run illegal daycares. I think that’s how folks make it work.

klooney 2y ago
There's a huge class divide in affordability. Unlicensed childcare, home remodeling, etc., is wildly cheaper.
- vundercind 2y ago
  Yeah, you don’t send your preschoolers to the Montessori school with five acres of woods for $300-600/wk, you send them to your cousin’s friend’s row house with a couple Wal-mart play structures in the chain link fenced back yard for like $120/wk. Places folks with software jobs never even hear of.
  - klooney 2y ago
    I watched cartoons on a dirty floor in a random house before school, I basically came out fine.

insane_dreamer 2y ago

Not to mention that you’re putting your corporate boss’ well being above that of your children who have to cope with those circumstances. I’m willing to deal with the commute. I’m not willing to let my kids take the hit.

lorax 2y ago

When I was doing this, I went in a bit later and dropped the kids off and my spouse went in a bit earlier and picked them up. They were neither the first ones in nor the last ones out. My commute was worst case 20 minutes, that also helped. It worked fine (except when spouse was traveling), but WFH Is much easier.

nkrisc 2y ago

> This will come of a spoiled and privileged, but I honestly have no idea how we'd make our day to day life work if I didn't work from home, with incredibly flexible hours. I don't think it's spoiled, I think you're spot on. Yeah, it's hard. And yes, you (and me and probably many others reading here) are privileged. > Obviously people make it work And yeah, they usually make it work, and it sucks. Or if they can't make it work then maybe a spouse or partner has to quit their job to handle that stuff and take care of the kids and then they have to get by with even less income.