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Journaling filesystems have been around for decades now; I don't think I've had a data loss incident since I stopped using Windows 98? I know it's volunteer dri

Journaling filesystems have been around for decades now; I don't think I've had a data loss incident since I stopped using Windows 98? I know it's volunteer driven but it seems like working on data integrity might be more of a benefit for security than some of the gimmicks like TRAPSLED.

mrweasel 2y ago
OpenBSD had Soft Updates, which isn't really journaling but sort of similar. It was suppose to help with with file system integrity, in the case of crashes. OpenBSD removed it last year because it got in the way of VFS updates, and was hard for the team to maintain[1]. I love OpenBSD, but it really does need a modern filesystem. The current team might be to small or just not have the right people to do a new filesystem. HammerFS2 could maybe be ported (and one has to wonder if that's not one of the thing that would requires VFS layer updates). Much of the current work on filesystems are being poured into GPL licensed code or ZFS, which also have an unfortunate license, so OpenBSD either has to borrow HammerFS, or do their own thing, which they probably don't have the resources for. 1) https://undeadly.org/cgi?action=article;sid=20230706044554 https://undeadly.org/cgi?action=article;sid=20230706044554
- 1oooqooq 2y ago
  BSDs bet on permissive license hoping companies would drop code on them. Turned out companies were either using linux or dumping abandoned code as GPL to strategically keep out of competitors. BSD licenses were a thing before GPL lost the final battle, when linus accepted the tainted-kernel compromise. Now it's a relic of a bygone time, which show allegiance to a side on a war that no longer matters.
  - Gud 2y ago
    A "relic" lol really? Better tell that to nginx and postgresql
    - 1oooqooq 2y ago
      databases move slow and nginx is already went the way of apache.
- cccbbbaaa 2y ago
  Apparently, they removed the soft update feature: https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-cvs&m=171489385310956&w=2 https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-cvs&m=171489385310956&w=2
1oooqooq 2y ago
Most setups nowadays do full disk encryption outside of the FS, so the journal doesn't help much. If you have SSD->LUKS->GPT->LVM->Ext4, then a bug on any of the (newer, buggier) components before your journaled FS means you lost data.
- chikere232 2y ago
  The journal does what it's supposed to, doesn't it? I.e: keep the file system from breaking on panics, or power loss. Sure it doesn't protect you against a corruption bug in LVM et al., but that doesn't make it useless.
- adastra22 2y ago
  Any examples of that happening in the wild?
  - 1oooqooq 2y ago
    Yes, if you search for people trying to mount a LUKS volume image readonly to then try (somewhat successfully in my case) to get data from the journal or run destructive fsck operations, you will find lots and lots of examples.
- wannacboatmovie 2y ago
  > If you have SSD->LUKS->GPT->LVM->Ext4, then a bug on any of the (newer, buggier) components before your journaled FS means you lost data And yet it's never happened to me. Dozens upon dozens of systems. Linux or Windows or Mac for that matter. I've toted around a laptop with whole disk encryption for > 15 years and never lost data. Not once. Even after a forced power off. I have, however, lost data to major FS corruption on an OpenBSD system with no encryption whatsoever. More than once. Still using ancient MBR and legacy boot because, well, OpenBSD.
  - 1oooqooq 2y ago
    > I've toted around a laptop with whole disk encryption for > 15 years and never lost data. me too. Until I did. Negative anecdotes in a discussion about rare events are unhelpful. My point is not that journaling is useless and should be dropped (I only use openBSD in things that are either readonly storage or virtualized on a host which does have proper FS). My point is that the "new setup" used by most distros introduced a lot of things that are above the journal. We have been rocking FDE for over 10yr, but the mass of people with crappy hardware and who just unplug their computers are only exposed to FDE for the past couple years.
asveikau 2y ago
> I don't think I've had a data loss incident since I stopped using Windows 98? Data loss from a kernel crash or power loss, sure, have not seen that in some time. However data loss from disk failure is something I've seen in the current century. I started using ZFS in my home network when I began to see that at home. I haven't had anything major that ZFS with redundancy couldn't recover since.

mrweasel 2y ago

OpenBSD had Soft Updates, which isn't really journaling but sort of similar. It was suppose to help with with file system integrity, in the case of crashes. OpenBSD removed it last year because it got in the way of VFS updates, and was hard for the team to maintain[1]. I love OpenBSD, but it really does need a modern filesystem. The current team might be to small or just not have the right people to do a new filesystem. HammerFS2 could maybe be ported (and one has to wonder if that's not one of the thing that would requires VFS layer updates). Much of the current work on filesystems are being poured into GPL licensed code or ZFS, which also have an unfortunate license, so OpenBSD either has to borrow HammerFS, or do their own thing, which they probably don't have the resources for. 1) https://undeadly.org/cgi?action=article;sid=20230706044554 https://undeadly.org/cgi?action=article;sid=20230706044554

1oooqooq 2y ago
BSDs bet on permissive license hoping companies would drop code on them. Turned out companies were either using linux or dumping abandoned code as GPL to strategically keep out of competitors. BSD licenses were a thing before GPL lost the final battle, when linus accepted the tainted-kernel compromise. Now it's a relic of a bygone time, which show allegiance to a side on a war that no longer matters.
- Gud 2y ago
  A "relic" lol really? Better tell that to nginx and postgresql
  - 1oooqooq 2y ago
    databases move slow and nginx is already went the way of apache.
cccbbbaaa 2y ago
Apparently, they removed the soft update feature: https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-cvs&m=171489385310956&w=2 https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-cvs&m=171489385310956&w=2

1oooqooq 2y ago

Most setups nowadays do full disk encryption outside of the FS, so the journal doesn't help much. If you have SSD->LUKS->GPT->LVM->Ext4, then a bug on any of the (newer, buggier) components before your journaled FS means you lost data.

chikere232 2y ago
The journal does what it's supposed to, doesn't it? I.e: keep the file system from breaking on panics, or power loss. Sure it doesn't protect you against a corruption bug in LVM et al., but that doesn't make it useless.
adastra22 2y ago
Any examples of that happening in the wild?
- 1oooqooq 2y ago
  Yes, if you search for people trying to mount a LUKS volume image readonly to then try (somewhat successfully in my case) to get data from the journal or run destructive fsck operations, you will find lots and lots of examples.
wannacboatmovie 2y ago
> If you have SSD->LUKS->GPT->LVM->Ext4, then a bug on any of the (newer, buggier) components before your journaled FS means you lost data And yet it's never happened to me. Dozens upon dozens of systems. Linux or Windows or Mac for that matter. I've toted around a laptop with whole disk encryption for > 15 years and never lost data. Not once. Even after a forced power off. I have, however, lost data to major FS corruption on an OpenBSD system with no encryption whatsoever. More than once. Still using ancient MBR and legacy boot because, well, OpenBSD.
- 1oooqooq 2y ago
  > I've toted around a laptop with whole disk encryption for > 15 years and never lost data. me too. Until I did. Negative anecdotes in a discussion about rare events are unhelpful. My point is not that journaling is useless and should be dropped (I only use openBSD in things that are either readonly storage or virtualized on a host which does have proper FS). My point is that the "new setup" used by most distros introduced a lot of things that are above the journal. We have been rocking FDE for over 10yr, but the mass of people with crappy hardware and who just unplug their computers are only exposed to FDE for the past couple years.

asveikau 2y ago

> I don't think I've had a data loss incident since I stopped using Windows 98? Data loss from a kernel crash or power loss, sure, have not seen that in some time. However data loss from disk failure is something I've seen in the current century. I started using ZFS in my home network when I began to see that at home. I haven't had anything major that ZFS with redundancy couldn't recover since.