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All UK universities do this. Not necessarily a bad thing unlike how the article portrays it. PhD students (and depending on the institution, postdocs) in the UK

All UK universities do this. Not necessarily a bad thing unlike how the article portrays it. PhD students (and depending on the institution, postdocs) in the UK get a stipend that has no mandated teaching hours. Teaching allows PhD students to earn some extra income within the university. We certainly still have a compensation problem in academia. Bright STEM PhD grads don't want to earn £30-40k as a postdoc when earning £150k+ in big tech or finance isn't unusual. However, PhD students earning a little side income by marking lab reports or programming assessments isn't necessarily bad.

helsinkiandrew 2y ago
Was about to say the same. Haven't PhD students usually done tutorials and supervised labs to undergraduates for the extra cash. Certainly was the case in my electronics undergrad course a few decades ago. > in 2023-24 one in five tutorials (20%) were taught by hourly-paid tutors – typically PhD students or academics at the start of their career.
- njjnjj 2y ago
  Depends on the university. 25 years ago now but a number of the PhD students I worked with had mummy and daddy paying for everything. One enterprising guy had a side business selling cocaine. Most were slumming it in house shares and taking on casual work. Only the blessed had teaching appointments. I was blessed until I realised it was a curse.
  - helsinkiandrew 2y ago
    I meant that most labs and tutorials were run by PhD students, not that most PhD students had jobs running labs and tutorials.
burnt-resistor 2y ago
Living conditions are worse for non-FTEs in America where there isn't the NHS and housing is more expensive. By contrast, Stanford's FTEs c. 2004 received such benefits as: - Choices from 9 health insurance plans - Vision, dental, mental healthcare, and long-term care - Employer-matched retirement contribution 1:1 up to 5% of salary, plus free 4% of salary - Access to then closed mutual funds like Fidelity Magellan - Secret discounts like on luxury vehicles - Credit union with 0% VISA debit foreign currency exchange rate - 50% discount on tuition after being an FTE for 10 years
jltsiren 2y ago
When I was a postdoc in Cambridge, the problem was that there were too many PhD students and postdocs who wanted to teach. Not because of the compensation but for the experience. A lot of people wanted to try a career in the academia, and they needed teaching experience for that. But there were not enough undergraduates for them all to teach.
- AtlasBarfed 2y ago
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJEmE7IYoLk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJEmE7IYoLk Summary: colleges are way too selective today at the high end. Boomers got into elite schools far more easily, although there were less schools. It's a bit of a disingenuous argument however, because the huge increase of schools down the long long LONG pecking order of school "eliteness". But the boomer thing is spot on.
  - alephnerd 2y ago
    > It's a bit of a disingenuous argument however, because the huge increase of schools down the long long LONG pecking order of school "eliteness" Ehn, it really doesn't. Harvard admits significantly less undergrads than Penn or Columbia, and in personal experience, the "Ivy" cachet doesn't really help that much in most industries outside of High Finance (which itself tends to targets Penn+Columbia instead of Harvard). Harvard was historically overrepresented in MBB+Management Consulting, but that industry is dying now that Accountancies and Implementation firms are bundling MC, and companies increasingly do strategy in-house. Prestige is a finicky thing. 30 years ago UChicago was not viewed as "prestigious" compared to Harvard (it was Claremont McKenna with snow back then), but ask high schoolers today and UChicago has a strong brand value. Also, ime, I just don't bump into Harvard grads anymore at high level positions (Director and above). Harvard historically overindexed on MBB and Boutique Consulting recruiting while Penn+Columbia targeted Wall Street and Stanford+Cal targeted Sand Hill and YC. Consulting slowly started withering away, so recruiting is tough. That said, Harvard does very well in China (largely thanks to John Fairbanks and Roderick MacFarquhar in the 1970s-90s), but they aren't as driven as UPenn has been in trying to diversify their international presence.
jvvw 2y ago
When I read the article when it came out, I was a bit annoyed that it singled out Oxford as it's the same at all the universities. It's also been that for a long time - I earned comparable amounts as a DPhil student and post-doc teaching at Oxford and another UK university. More recently I've worked as a tutor for The Open University and the pay for that has felt in a similar ballpark once you take into account all the marking and prep you need to do. When I did it, I had my DPhil grant/post-doc salary and it felt like side money rather than being my 'job' and I was partly doing for the experience, for my CV (good to be able to put 'Lecturer at Oxford' on it!) and partly because I enjoyed it. I felt quite lucky to be offered tutoring jobs at Oxford as they were much sought-after by DPhil students. I think it's also worth pointing out that not all Oxford colleges are 'rich' and many have buildings and grounds that are expensive to maintain. I don't think most of them are better placed to pay more than other UK universities. There's an argument to be made that people teaching at universities should be paid more, but it does feel unfair to single out Oxford.
- mmooss 2y ago
  > I was a bit annoyed that it singled out Oxford Oxford singles itself out as elite, thus "good to be able to put 'Lecturer at Oxford' on it [the CV]!". They are being held to that standard.
probably_wrong 2y ago
It is definitely a bad thing: as a postdoc you have to constantly uproot your life chasing the ever-elusive permanent contract so good luck rebuilding your social circle from scratch every five years. And God help you if you're married or (the horror!) want to have children. It's also not good for the Universities, who are constantly losing institutional knowledge and having to retrain people from scratch. Did you offer a kickass course on Neural Networks last year? Well, too bad, the guy who offered it is now gone. But here's a fresh guy with a PhD in economics, and that's just as good.
njjnjj 2y ago
That has improved. Back in 1998 I was managing £8k a year (!) part time, which was really a full time job, while being told I was privileged to have such a position at a prestigious university. With little experience I didn't know any better. Woke up one day, said fuck it, pissed off my doctoral advisor, a somewhat rotten old tenured professor by suggesting that it wasn't worth doing this any more. Looked around and picked up a job for £26k within a month. Never looked back.
blibble 2y ago
it's portrayed as a bad thing by the union because these phd students doing supervisions/tutorials aren't union members it really is that simple phd students love doing supervisions, they literally queue up around the block for the teaching experience and the tax free cash
- mmooss 2y ago
  > phd students love doing supervisions, they literally queue up around the block for the teaching experience and the tax free cash Maybe they have no choice and are being exploited. PhD students current and former that I've spoken to definitely think they are being exploited. As examples, look at the comments from actual PhD students and postdocs on this page.
  - blibble 2y ago
    I lived with three of them, they loved doing them
    - Marsymars 2y ago
      Loving your job isn't mutually exclusive from being exploited. The best job I ever had was in a academic/research-tangential position out of school, but the pay was bad and the effort/reward required for advancement was unreasonable, so I left after a year.
      - blibble 2y ago
        yeah, they were being paid 3x the minimum wage, and were paid for prep time vs. the alternative available part time work (sainsburys/tesco) definitely exploited
YeGoblynQueenne 2y ago
The article is talking about full-on lectureships, for example, this part-time role, initially advertised as full-time, according to the article: >> One of Oxford’s top colleges, Christ Church, which had an income of £42.6m in 2022-23, is currently advertising a stipendiary lectureship in modern European history for £15,244 to £16,983. For comparison, 15-16k was the range of my PhD stipend at Imperial College London between 2017-22 (I never got a clear answer what it was supposed to be exactly, from the admin, so I had to estimate it from my monthly pay, which fluctuated). It always stayed below minimum wage (so I didn't have to repay my undergard tuition fee loan). That's normal for PhD stipends, but it really shouldn't be for a lectureship. I believe what you're thinking of is TA work: "marking lab reports or programming assessments". I did some of that, during my PhD. I don't remember the pay rate but it was less than minimum wage and the jobs were part-time and didn't last for more than a semester obviously. That kind of job is, indeed, ideal when you're looking for "a little side income", but a lectureship is supposed to be your main line job, not a side hustle.
- cherryteastain 2y ago
  To be fair, Imperial is the best paying UK university by far. Postdoc positions at Imperial pay better than Lecturer/Senior Lecturer positions at other universities.
  - yunohn 2y ago
    That may well be, but quite surprising to learn that the best paying university is still paying under minimum wage…
    - cherryteastain 2y ago
      PhD stipends are technically not classified as income in the UK. As such, they are not subject to minimum wage laws or taxation.
  - YeGoblynQueenne 2y ago
    Too bad I only did my PhD in Imperial and my current post-doc elsewhere :)
maxmynter95 2y ago
As someone who got accepted into an Oxf'd DPhil program, did not get a stipend and had to decline the offer it certainly stings when you say "not necessarily a bad thing". Because it definitely is a class barrier, and since my spot wasn't filled by someone else, also a lack in research output.

helsinkiandrew 2y ago

Was about to say the same. Haven't PhD students usually done tutorials and supervised labs to undergraduates for the extra cash. Certainly was the case in my electronics undergrad course a few decades ago. > in 2023-24 one in five tutorials (20%) were taught by hourly-paid tutors – typically PhD students or academics at the start of their career.

njjnjj 2y ago
Depends on the university. 25 years ago now but a number of the PhD students I worked with had mummy and daddy paying for everything. One enterprising guy had a side business selling cocaine. Most were slumming it in house shares and taking on casual work. Only the blessed had teaching appointments. I was blessed until I realised it was a curse.
- helsinkiandrew 2y ago
  I meant that most labs and tutorials were run by PhD students, not that most PhD students had jobs running labs and tutorials.

burnt-resistor 2y ago

Living conditions are worse for non-FTEs in America where there isn't the NHS and housing is more expensive. By contrast, Stanford's FTEs c. 2004 received such benefits as: - Choices from 9 health insurance plans - Vision, dental, mental healthcare, and long-term care - Employer-matched retirement contribution 1:1 up to 5% of salary, plus free 4% of salary - Access to then closed mutual funds like Fidelity Magellan - Secret discounts like on luxury vehicles - Credit union with 0% VISA debit foreign currency exchange rate - 50% discount on tuition after being an FTE for 10 years

jltsiren 2y ago

When I was a postdoc in Cambridge, the problem was that there were too many PhD students and postdocs who wanted to teach. Not because of the compensation but for the experience. A lot of people wanted to try a career in the academia, and they needed teaching experience for that. But there were not enough undergraduates for them all to teach.

AtlasBarfed 2y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJEmE7IYoLk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJEmE7IYoLk Summary: colleges are way too selective today at the high end. Boomers got into elite schools far more easily, although there were less schools. It's a bit of a disingenuous argument however, because the huge increase of schools down the long long LONG pecking order of school "eliteness". But the boomer thing is spot on.
- alephnerd 2y ago
  > It's a bit of a disingenuous argument however, because the huge increase of schools down the long long LONG pecking order of school "eliteness" Ehn, it really doesn't. Harvard admits significantly less undergrads than Penn or Columbia, and in personal experience, the "Ivy" cachet doesn't really help that much in most industries outside of High Finance (which itself tends to targets Penn+Columbia instead of Harvard). Harvard was historically overrepresented in MBB+Management Consulting, but that industry is dying now that Accountancies and Implementation firms are bundling MC, and companies increasingly do strategy in-house. Prestige is a finicky thing. 30 years ago UChicago was not viewed as "prestigious" compared to Harvard (it was Claremont McKenna with snow back then), but ask high schoolers today and UChicago has a strong brand value. Also, ime, I just don't bump into Harvard grads anymore at high level positions (Director and above). Harvard historically overindexed on MBB and Boutique Consulting recruiting while Penn+Columbia targeted Wall Street and Stanford+Cal targeted Sand Hill and YC. Consulting slowly started withering away, so recruiting is tough. That said, Harvard does very well in China (largely thanks to John Fairbanks and Roderick MacFarquhar in the 1970s-90s), but they aren't as driven as UPenn has been in trying to diversify their international presence.

jvvw 2y ago

When I read the article when it came out, I was a bit annoyed that it singled out Oxford as it's the same at all the universities. It's also been that for a long time - I earned comparable amounts as a DPhil student and post-doc teaching at Oxford and another UK university. More recently I've worked as a tutor for The Open University and the pay for that has felt in a similar ballpark once you take into account all the marking and prep you need to do. When I did it, I had my DPhil grant/post-doc salary and it felt like side money rather than being my 'job' and I was partly doing for the experience, for my CV (good to be able to put 'Lecturer at Oxford' on it!) and partly because I enjoyed it. I felt quite lucky to be offered tutoring jobs at Oxford as they were much sought-after by DPhil students. I think it's also worth pointing out that not all Oxford colleges are 'rich' and many have buildings and grounds that are expensive to maintain. I don't think most of them are better placed to pay more than other UK universities. There's an argument to be made that people teaching at universities should be paid more, but it does feel unfair to single out Oxford.

mmooss 2y ago
> I was a bit annoyed that it singled out Oxford Oxford singles itself out as elite, thus "good to be able to put 'Lecturer at Oxford' on it [the CV]!". They are being held to that standard.

probably_wrong 2y ago

It is definitely a bad thing: as a postdoc you have to constantly uproot your life chasing the ever-elusive permanent contract so good luck rebuilding your social circle from scratch every five years. And God help you if you're married or (the horror!) want to have children. It's also not good for the Universities, who are constantly losing institutional knowledge and having to retrain people from scratch. Did you offer a kickass course on Neural Networks last year? Well, too bad, the guy who offered it is now gone. But here's a fresh guy with a PhD in economics, and that's just as good.

njjnjj 2y ago

That has improved. Back in 1998 I was managing £8k a year (!) part time, which was really a full time job, while being told I was privileged to have such a position at a prestigious university. With little experience I didn't know any better. Woke up one day, said fuck it, pissed off my doctoral advisor, a somewhat rotten old tenured professor by suggesting that it wasn't worth doing this any more. Looked around and picked up a job for £26k within a month. Never looked back.

blibble 2y ago

it's portrayed as a bad thing by the union because these phd students doing supervisions/tutorials aren't union members it really is that simple phd students love doing supervisions, they literally queue up around the block for the teaching experience and the tax free cash

mmooss 2y ago
> phd students love doing supervisions, they literally queue up around the block for the teaching experience and the tax free cash Maybe they have no choice and are being exploited. PhD students current and former that I've spoken to definitely think they are being exploited. As examples, look at the comments from actual PhD students and postdocs on this page.
- blibble 2y ago
  I lived with three of them, they loved doing them
  - Marsymars 2y ago
    Loving your job isn't mutually exclusive from being exploited. The best job I ever had was in a academic/research-tangential position out of school, but the pay was bad and the effort/reward required for advancement was unreasonable, so I left after a year.
    - blibble 2y ago
      yeah, they were being paid 3x the minimum wage, and were paid for prep time vs. the alternative available part time work (sainsburys/tesco) definitely exploited

YeGoblynQueenne 2y ago

The article is talking about full-on lectureships, for example, this part-time role, initially advertised as full-time, according to the article: >> One of Oxford’s top colleges, Christ Church, which had an income of £42.6m in 2022-23, is currently advertising a stipendiary lectureship in modern European history for £15,244 to £16,983. For comparison, 15-16k was the range of my PhD stipend at Imperial College London between 2017-22 (I never got a clear answer what it was supposed to be exactly, from the admin, so I had to estimate it from my monthly pay, which fluctuated). It always stayed below minimum wage (so I didn't have to repay my undergard tuition fee loan). That's normal for PhD stipends, but it really shouldn't be for a lectureship. I believe what you're thinking of is TA work: "marking lab reports or programming assessments". I did some of that, during my PhD. I don't remember the pay rate but it was less than minimum wage and the jobs were part-time and didn't last for more than a semester obviously. That kind of job is, indeed, ideal when you're looking for "a little side income", but a lectureship is supposed to be your main line job, not a side hustle.

cherryteastain 2y ago
To be fair, Imperial is the best paying UK university by far. Postdoc positions at Imperial pay better than Lecturer/Senior Lecturer positions at other universities.
- yunohn 2y ago
  That may well be, but quite surprising to learn that the best paying university is still paying under minimum wage…
  - cherryteastain 2y ago
    PhD stipends are technically not classified as income in the UK. As such, they are not subject to minimum wage laws or taxation.
- YeGoblynQueenne 2y ago
  Too bad I only did my PhD in Imperial and my current post-doc elsewhere :)

maxmynter95 2y ago

As someone who got accepted into an Oxf'd DPhil program, did not get a stipend and had to decline the offer it certainly stings when you say "not necessarily a bad thing". Because it definitely is a class barrier, and since my spot wasn't filled by someone else, also a lack in research output.