4 ms·

> Wayland support is very experimental and broken You and everyone else, RGFW, you and everyone else.

by dmitrygr 2y ago

colleagueRiley 2y ago
X11 needs a real alternative :(
- themerone 2y ago
  What do you expect from an alternative?
  - colleagueRiley 2y ago
    - Better API design - Not being experimental after 11 years I think that Wayland actually has some steps in the right direction, but overall I don't think it's actually a very good alternative. It's way more low-level than X11 and a lot of higher level features, like window decorations, are not even officially supported.
- akira2501 2y ago
  X11 is fine. It's mostly just Video Games that need an alternative. It'd be nice if there was a "pause X11 video card control and give exclusive access to a single application." Then there's no need to care.
  - ori_b 2y ago
    You just described X11's DRI (direct rendering infrastructure). https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_Rendering_Infrastructure https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_Rendering_Infrastruct...
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - Longhanks 2y ago
    X11 is utterly broken for multi-monitor setups with different resolutions at different scales (e. g. builtin laptop screen @1.25x, external display at 1x or some variation of that). With high resolution screens (e g. 4k at only 27"), that setup is not uncommon anymore. (Wayland is broken in very many other ways, though, so you trade one evil for... 5 others).
    - alwayslikethis 2y ago
      Wayland's scaling for 1.25x and even 1.5x is not so great either, though it is slowly going in the right direction with wp-fractional-scale-v1
    - uecker 2y ago
      X was a very well designed system IMHO that could be evolved via extensions (e.g. how compositing was added etc.). It is sad that few people work on it anymore to fix such issues.
      - immibis 2y ago
        X isn't opinionated enough, and Wayland is even worse. While X has labels like "substructure redirect override" that in practice means "bypass the window manager" and tries to theoretically support multiple window managers, Wayland barely even knows what a window is!
    - immibis 2y ago
      Correction: Xorg doesn't have good support for this. I don't think there's an extension for it in the protocol either, but one could be created - just as it has for Wayland. Apps that don't support the extension should be scaled by the compositor as usual. X11 has a reasonably solid core, though, while Wayland does not.
  - freeone3000 2y ago
    This actually doesn’t work with modern expectations. Modern games are expected to work in multi-monitor setups and render in “borderless windowed” mode, so you can alt-tab out to multitask, or have a comms overlay. Single monitor single process gaming still happens, but a good 85% of setups (according to the Steam Hardware Survey) are not that. There are five games I know or that actually handle multimonitor natively of the hundreds I’ve played. So we need some form of cooperative multitasking for graphics with the window manager.
    - 1oooqooq 2y ago
      Modern good games are not expected to "render in “borderless windowed” mode, so you can alt-tab out to multitask" Really bad games with slow multiplayer match making lobby and tiresome repetitive gameplay and bad UX where you need to look most of the actual game information on a fan wiki, or triple A games where you have to login and enter credit card information on a "launcher"... those are the ones you expect to "render in “borderless windowed” mode, so you can alt-tab out to multitask". Good riddance.
- jll29 2y ago
  Are you kidding? I started reading the X11 handbook series in the 1980s and now it's 2024 and I'm nearly finished, and you want to replace it? ;-)
amjoshuamichael 2y ago
Yeah, I've been looking for a minimal SDL alternative for a long time and I was really excited reading through this as that solution, but the lack of Wayland support is a huge dealbreaker for me. Are there any good minimal windowing utilities that support Wayland? SDL does a lot I don't need and I try to maintain minimal dependencies. I suppose I could just use glfw & libsoundio, haven't tried that yet.
- colleagueRiley 2y ago
  As far as I know, RGFW is the only minimal windowing of its kind. I guess I would suggest either targeting XWayland or using GLFW. The Wayland API itself also really sucks to work with, even more so than Xlib.... But, RGFW's Wayland support will probably be improved in the future. :)
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- PittleyDunkin 2y ago
  GLFW has worked well for me.
- marcthe12 2y ago
  Waylands problem is that to use it, you need code generation so the wayland backend kinda hard to design for a header only lib.
  - colleagueRiley 2y ago
    I just have the Makefile do the code generation, it would be annoying for the user, but they can complain to Wayland if they don't like it.
  - amjoshuamichael 2y ago
    I've seen some interesting work in doing Wayland by hand: https://gaultier.github.io/blog/wayland_from_scratch.html https://gaultier.github.io/blog/wayland_from_scratch.html I'd also look at the work done on minimal wayland projects like [foot](https://codeberg.org/dnkl/foot https://codeberg.org/dnkl/foot), which supports wayland well and seems to be written by hand (see: https://codeberg.org/dnkl/foot/src/branch/master/wayland.c https://codeberg.org/dnkl/foot/src/branch/master/wayland.c)

> Wayland support is very experimental and broken You and everyone else, RGFW, you and everyone else.

colleagueRiley 2y ago

X11 needs a real alternative :(

themerone 2y ago
What do you expect from an alternative?
- colleagueRiley 2y ago
  - Better API design - Not being experimental after 11 years I think that Wayland actually has some steps in the right direction, but overall I don't think it's actually a very good alternative. It's way more low-level than X11 and a lot of higher level features, like window decorations, are not even officially supported.
akira2501 2y ago
X11 is fine. It's mostly just Video Games that need an alternative. It'd be nice if there was a "pause X11 video card control and give exclusive access to a single application." Then there's no need to care.
- ori_b 2y ago
  You just described X11's DRI (direct rendering infrastructure). https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_Rendering_Infrastructure https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_Rendering_Infrastruct...
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- Longhanks 2y ago
  X11 is utterly broken for multi-monitor setups with different resolutions at different scales (e. g. builtin laptop screen @1.25x, external display at 1x or some variation of that). With high resolution screens (e g. 4k at only 27"), that setup is not uncommon anymore. (Wayland is broken in very many other ways, though, so you trade one evil for... 5 others).
  - alwayslikethis 2y ago
    Wayland's scaling for 1.25x and even 1.5x is not so great either, though it is slowly going in the right direction with wp-fractional-scale-v1
  - uecker 2y ago
    X was a very well designed system IMHO that could be evolved via extensions (e.g. how compositing was added etc.). It is sad that few people work on it anymore to fix such issues.
    - immibis 2y ago
      X isn't opinionated enough, and Wayland is even worse. While X has labels like "substructure redirect override" that in practice means "bypass the window manager" and tries to theoretically support multiple window managers, Wayland barely even knows what a window is!
  - immibis 2y ago
    Correction: Xorg doesn't have good support for this. I don't think there's an extension for it in the protocol either, but one could be created - just as it has for Wayland. Apps that don't support the extension should be scaled by the compositor as usual. X11 has a reasonably solid core, though, while Wayland does not.
- freeone3000 2y ago
  This actually doesn’t work with modern expectations. Modern games are expected to work in multi-monitor setups and render in “borderless windowed” mode, so you can alt-tab out to multitask, or have a comms overlay. Single monitor single process gaming still happens, but a good 85% of setups (according to the Steam Hardware Survey) are not that. There are five games I know or that actually handle multimonitor natively of the hundreds I’ve played. So we need some form of cooperative multitasking for graphics with the window manager.
  - 1oooqooq 2y ago
    Modern good games are not expected to "render in “borderless windowed” mode, so you can alt-tab out to multitask" Really bad games with slow multiplayer match making lobby and tiresome repetitive gameplay and bad UX where you need to look most of the actual game information on a fan wiki, or triple A games where you have to login and enter credit card information on a "launcher"... those are the ones you expect to "render in “borderless windowed” mode, so you can alt-tab out to multitask". Good riddance.
jll29 2y ago
Are you kidding? I started reading the X11 handbook series in the 1980s and now it's 2024 and I'm nearly finished, and you want to replace it? ;-)

amjoshuamichael 2y ago

Yeah, I've been looking for a minimal SDL alternative for a long time and I was really excited reading through this as that solution, but the lack of Wayland support is a huge dealbreaker for me. Are there any good minimal windowing utilities that support Wayland? SDL does a lot I don't need and I try to maintain minimal dependencies. I suppose I could just use glfw & libsoundio, haven't tried that yet.

colleagueRiley 2y ago
As far as I know, RGFW is the only minimal windowing of its kind. I guess I would suggest either targeting XWayland or using GLFW. The Wayland API itself also really sucks to work with, even more so than Xlib.... But, RGFW's Wayland support will probably be improved in the future. :)
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
PittleyDunkin 2y ago
GLFW has worked well for me.
marcthe12 2y ago
Waylands problem is that to use it, you need code generation so the wayland backend kinda hard to design for a header only lib.
- colleagueRiley 2y ago
  I just have the Makefile do the code generation, it would be annoying for the user, but they can complain to Wayland if they don't like it.
- amjoshuamichael 2y ago
  I've seen some interesting work in doing Wayland by hand: https://gaultier.github.io/blog/wayland_from_scratch.html https://gaultier.github.io/blog/wayland_from_scratch.html I'd also look at the work done on minimal wayland projects like [foot](https://codeberg.org/dnkl/foot https://codeberg.org/dnkl/foot), which supports wayland well and seems to be written by hand (see: https://codeberg.org/dnkl/foot/src/branch/master/wayland.c https://codeberg.org/dnkl/foot/src/branch/master/wayland.c)