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The issue here is that you're shifting the goalposts. Here's a boiled-down transcript what just transpired between yourself and the other commenter: You:

The issue here is that you're shifting the goalposts. Here's a boiled-down transcript what just transpired between yourself and the other commenter: You: NATO seeks to deploy missiles within 7 minutes flight time of Russia's capitol. That's bad, threatening. They: But we already have Russian missiles in the middle of Europe, in Kaliningrad. You: But those missiles are on Russian territory, so that makes it OK. There's simply no logic in your follow-up. Either the concern is missile proximity as you initially stated, or it isn't. And if it is -- you can't simply say it's intrinsically threatening and destabilizing when one country does it, but somehow benign and non-threatening when another country does (simply because in their case the missiles happen to be on their own territory). Plus there's Russia's announcment of its intent to employ actual nuclear-armed missiles in Belarus, which no one has mentioned. Which would seem to make its complaint about non-nuclear deployments in Ukraine (which everyone knows will be exactly that) largely moot.

aa-jv 2y ago
Does Russia have the right to apply policies equivalent to the US' own Monroe Doctrine, or doesn't it? If not, why do you think Russia doesn't have that right, when the USA does? Also, your entire position assumes that Europe==USA, when in fact it simply doesn't. The USA is forward-deploying its missile systems in (currently) friendly states - what happens when those states turn against the USA? Does the USA simply invade and retrieve its missile systems?
- aguaviva 2y ago
  Does Russia have the right to apply policies equivalent to the US' own Monroe Doctrine, or doesn't it? No country has a "right" to apply the Monroe Doctrine, anywhere, of course. The idea that we should defend or empathize with (or "understand") Russia's current smash-and-grab operation underway in Ukraine, based on a perceived similarity between its actions and whatever bad things other empires have done, way back when -- I find to be really quite bizarre. Why do you think Russia doesn't have that right, when the USA does? I don't think the US has any such right -- and I find it quite strange that pretend to "know" that I would.
  - aguaviva 2y ago
    "that you should pretend ..."
- mopsi 2y ago
  > Does Russia have the right to apply policies equivalent to the US' own Monroe Doctrine, or doesn't it? Yes it does, but I think you've misunderstood what the Monroe Doctrine was. The Monroe Doctrine was not a blank license for the US to invade other countries and kill people there. The point of Monroe Doctrine was to protect western hemisphere from wars initiated by European colonial empires. A good example of this is the French invasion of Mexico in 1862 in an attempt to turn the newly-independent Mexico into a colony and install European aristocrat from the Habsburg dynasty as the emperor of Mexico. Americans offered military aid to Mexico, and after a few years of fighting, that emperor got executed by a firing squad and French forces were expulsed. Sounds familiar? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_French_intervention_in_Mexico https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_French_intervention_in_... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximilian_I_of_Mexico https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximilian_I_of_Mexico Russia is acting like one of those colonial empires that sought to conquer and exploit the Americas. The Monroe Doctrine was formulated against such behavior.
  - hollerith 2y ago
    And yet when in 1962 the USSR at the invitation of the legitimate Cuban government tried to install missiles in Cuba, the US stopped them through a naval blockade. Also, if government of Mexico ever decides to invite the People's Liberation Army into Mexico to help Mexico defend itself, and the PLA accepts the invitation, I want and expect my government (i.e., Washington) to stop them -- with organized violence if necessary such as is currently happening in Ukraine.
    - aguaviva 2y ago
      Also not really about the Monroe Doctrine, as the US action was in response strictly to the deployment of offensive missiles (what it saw as a de facto aggressive action against it) -- not the simple fact of Cuba forming a close relationship with the USSR per se. Also, if government of Mexico ever decides to invite the People's Liberation Army into Mexico to help Mexico defend itself And if that invitation happened only after Mexico was invaded by the US (on as grounds as equally stupid and unprovoked as Russia's current invasion of Ukraine) -- then I'm sure we can trust that you will not only unequivocally condemn that aggression, but solidly champion Mexico's right to defend itself against it by whatever means necessary. See also: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42199619 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42199619

aa-jv 2y ago

Does Russia have the right to apply policies equivalent to the US' own Monroe Doctrine, or doesn't it? If not, why do you think Russia doesn't have that right, when the USA does? Also, your entire position assumes that Europe==USA, when in fact it simply doesn't. The USA is forward-deploying its missile systems in (currently) friendly states - what happens when those states turn against the USA? Does the USA simply invade and retrieve its missile systems?

aguaviva 2y ago
Does Russia have the right to apply policies equivalent to the US' own Monroe Doctrine, or doesn't it? No country has a "right" to apply the Monroe Doctrine, anywhere, of course. The idea that we should defend or empathize with (or "understand") Russia's current smash-and-grab operation underway in Ukraine, based on a perceived similarity between its actions and whatever bad things other empires have done, way back when -- I find to be really quite bizarre. Why do you think Russia doesn't have that right, when the USA does? I don't think the US has any such right -- and I find it quite strange that pretend to "know" that I would.
- aguaviva 2y ago
  "that you should pretend ..."
mopsi 2y ago
> Does Russia have the right to apply policies equivalent to the US' own Monroe Doctrine, or doesn't it? Yes it does, but I think you've misunderstood what the Monroe Doctrine was. The Monroe Doctrine was not a blank license for the US to invade other countries and kill people there. The point of Monroe Doctrine was to protect western hemisphere from wars initiated by European colonial empires. A good example of this is the French invasion of Mexico in 1862 in an attempt to turn the newly-independent Mexico into a colony and install European aristocrat from the Habsburg dynasty as the emperor of Mexico. Americans offered military aid to Mexico, and after a few years of fighting, that emperor got executed by a firing squad and French forces were expulsed. Sounds familiar? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_French_intervention_in_Mexico https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_French_intervention_in_... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximilian_I_of_Mexico https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximilian_I_of_Mexico Russia is acting like one of those colonial empires that sought to conquer and exploit the Americas. The Monroe Doctrine was formulated against such behavior.
- hollerith 2y ago
  And yet when in 1962 the USSR at the invitation of the legitimate Cuban government tried to install missiles in Cuba, the US stopped them through a naval blockade. Also, if government of Mexico ever decides to invite the People's Liberation Army into Mexico to help Mexico defend itself, and the PLA accepts the invitation, I want and expect my government (i.e., Washington) to stop them -- with organized violence if necessary such as is currently happening in Ukraine.
  - aguaviva 2y ago
    Also not really about the Monroe Doctrine, as the US action was in response strictly to the deployment of offensive missiles (what it saw as a de facto aggressive action against it) -- not the simple fact of Cuba forming a close relationship with the USSR per se. Also, if government of Mexico ever decides to invite the People's Liberation Army into Mexico to help Mexico defend itself And if that invitation happened only after Mexico was invaded by the US (on as grounds as equally stupid and unprovoked as Russia's current invasion of Ukraine) -- then I'm sure we can trust that you will not only unequivocally condemn that aggression, but solidly champion Mexico's right to defend itself against it by whatever means necessary. See also: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42199619 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42199619