7 ms·

Sweden's Northvolt files for bankruptcy, in blow to Europe's EV ambitions

38 points by Element_ 2y ago

pjmlp 2y ago
They are not alone, apparently Ford is closing down EV factories due to lack of sales. Get the prices down, and people will buy EVs.
- LtWorf 2y ago
  Which will hardly happen with the tariffs
  - MrHamburger 2y ago
    So Chinese advantage with EVs + tariffs in USA and EU can cause that China will get stuck with massive overcapacity for BEV manufacturing and thus bankruptcies. I wonder if China little bit overplayed their hand in those massive exports.
    - rightbyte 2y ago
      > I wonder if China little bit overplayed their hand in those massive exports. For each export there is an import. The EU elite might be the ones overplaying their hand thinking that their voters care if a car is german or chinese. I want a BYD.
      - pjmlp 2y ago
        The voters care about if they can afford a car for their daily needs, they much care less about what powers them.
      - MrHamburger 2y ago
        Chinese import of EU goods compared to exports to EU are pretty small. That's why you see Chinese targeting luxury products as an answer for BEV tariffs which is more for effect than effective.
      - beAbU 2y ago
        Do you want a BYD because of supposed cheapness/high value for money, or does the car/brand offer something else you want that other brands do not offer? I'm genuinely curious. I do think pricing being equal, people will probably still opt for more well known European/Japanese/Korean brands. It takes a generation or two for a new car brand to really penetrate a market, people are sometimes really really weird when it comes to their perception of and loyalty towards car brands.
        rightbyte 2y ago
        It is the price point only. A little bit sticking it to the man maybe, too. Also I believe there is no spyware in those cars, compared to fancy brands. But that might change on short notice.
        fragmede 2y ago
        Why would there be less spyware on the cheaper brands?
        rightbyte 2y ago
        No internet? Many cars got their own cell phone connection nowadays.
    - toyg 2y ago
      China still has a humongous "market of last resort": the internal masses, which can be leveraged with public money (i.e. the state could pay poor people to buy cars). This can keep manufacturers alive until the trade war cools down.
      - MrHamburger 2y ago
        That humungous internal market is also pretty poor to afford BEVs in a price tag which would have been sold in EU or USA, same like rest of the planet. Furthermore rest of the planet (expect few developed islands) have additional issues with non-existent infrastructure to support BEV.
        Cumpiler69 2y ago
        >That humungous internal market is also pretty poor to afford BEVs in a price tag which would have been sold in EU or USA The US consumer has on average more purchasing power than the EU consumer, but BEH prices are roughly the same on both sides.
- Cumpiler69 2y ago
  >Get the prices down, and people will buy EVs. That sounds good and all, but how would you expect to get the prices down without loosing money and while still employing western workers at western standards of living? Prices don't come down magically just because you want them to. EVs also have the range/public charging issue buyers are fleeing from, not just the price alone. Once you exhausted the market of buyers who can install chargers at home, the rest is impossible to cater to when public charging infrastructure is so shitty and expensive compared to those who have it at home or tanking at gas stations. The government needs first to invest in cheap and plentiful public EV charging infrastructure if they wish to entice non-home-owners to switch from their ICEs. But when public chargers charge you through the nose for electricity (and loitering time!), they have shitty and buggy UX, or are broken half the time, why would you ever get an EV in favor of an ICE?
  - pjmlp 2y ago
    The consequence being, that whatever deadlines goverments set for full EV transition will be ignored, or dropped, when the large majority of population keeps driving ICE.
    - Cumpiler69 2y ago
      It is, because the deadline for the EV switch in the EU was arbitrarily set on idealist wishful thinking that sounded good on paper, and not on calculated pragmatism based on economic potential, working class purchasing power, local automotive industry capabilities, public EV infrastructure investment and development, potential world conflicts and economic/trade issues, etc. It's easy for politicians to say "we want an amazing outcome in 15 years where everything is green" and for voters to agree with that, the issue comes when the rubber hits the road, especially as the politicians who made the original promise won't be in power anymore by then. I would also wish to look like Chris Hemsworth from Thor in 5 years time, but when I actually look into my genetics, diet and exercise regimen, that aint gonna happe without some very radical and mostly uncomfortable life changes that deep down I know I won't be able to do. I'm not gonna suddenly wake up with the six pack while I keep my existing lifestyle. Similarly, the EU is not gonna wake up to an EV future in 10 years while doing everything like before. EU politicians and EU voters wants idealist outcomes (cheap green energy, EVs everywhere, welfare state, affordable housing, good paying jobs with social benefits) without putting in the radical (and maybe even unrealistic) changes needed to achieve those goals: energy independence on the cheap, manufacturing independence, investing in research, innovation and start-ups, investing in defense independence, investing in public housing and infrastructure, etc
pstuart 2y ago
Bummer. It would be nice not have all battery eggs in China's basket.
- lifestyleguru 2y ago
  We're safe, the other half of petrol eggs we have in Saudi Arabia and Russia.
- Cumpiler69 2y ago
  Who could have foreseen this is what will happen when you(the west) decide to move all your manufacturing to another country just for a quick buck for the shareholders?
  - Gud 2y ago
    There is still plenty of manufacturing happening both in Europe and the US. I work for a factory in Switzerland. Many villages in Switzerland have a factory producing some fine tuned gadget.
    - Cumpiler69 2y ago
      What are the salaries paid working at those factories? Do they pay RSUs? Offer WFH?
em500 2y ago
There's an interesting AMA on Reddit from a Northvolt engineer: https://old.reddit.com/r/sweden/comments/1g1xkmx/jag_%C3%A4r_ingenj%C3%B6r_p%C3%A5_northvolt_ama/ https://old.reddit.com/r/sweden/comments/1g1xkmx/jag_%C3%A4r... (Google translate works well on the old.reddit.com site). According to this (and other) reports, they never got their high volume production yields anywhere near that of their (Chinese, Japanese, Korean) competitors, which made their end products far too expensive. Geopolitics aside, they didn't have any competitive edge, it's difficult to see where they would get it, since both their raw materials and manufacturing equipment were majorly imported from Asia.
- rightbyte 2y ago
  Also, Northvolt had leadership with hubris. All talk and no batteries. If you want to rush building a 'giga factory' you need to pay up for skilled people. Which they didn't. You don't get relevant engineers and workers to move to the middle of snow-where for the same wage as they have now. And they tried to scale up production even before they were able to make proper batteries...
  - lifestyleguru 2y ago
    Nothing attracts skilled labor better than perspective of paying 45% monthly contributions then begging the housing market to accept you, so you can pay another 40% of net salary on rent.
    - rightbyte 2y ago
      Rent? The town does rent control. There is nothing to rent. You can't outprice the locals with their queue time. Dunno how they thought there would be room to house like 4000 employees in such a small town on such a short notice. The effect on hireing is enormous. After you employeed all available able bodied locals you get desperate people happy to live in barracks.
      - lifestyleguru 2y ago
guenthert 2y ago
Er, they filed for chapter 11, bankruptcy protection. It's not the end of the road, but rather a cry for help.
MichaelZuo 2y ago
Why is this flagged?

38 points by Element_ 2y ago

They are not alone, apparently Ford is closing down EV factories due to lack of sales. Get the prices down, and people will buy EVs.

LtWorf 2y ago
Which will hardly happen with the tariffs
- MrHamburger 2y ago
  So Chinese advantage with EVs + tariffs in USA and EU can cause that China will get stuck with massive overcapacity for BEV manufacturing and thus bankruptcies. I wonder if China little bit overplayed their hand in those massive exports.
  - rightbyte 2y ago
    > I wonder if China little bit overplayed their hand in those massive exports. For each export there is an import. The EU elite might be the ones overplaying their hand thinking that their voters care if a car is german or chinese. I want a BYD.
    - pjmlp 2y ago
      The voters care about if they can afford a car for their daily needs, they much care less about what powers them.
    - MrHamburger 2y ago
      Chinese import of EU goods compared to exports to EU are pretty small. That's why you see Chinese targeting luxury products as an answer for BEV tariffs which is more for effect than effective.
    - beAbU 2y ago
      Do you want a BYD because of supposed cheapness/high value for money, or does the car/brand offer something else you want that other brands do not offer? I'm genuinely curious. I do think pricing being equal, people will probably still opt for more well known European/Japanese/Korean brands. It takes a generation or two for a new car brand to really penetrate a market, people are sometimes really really weird when it comes to their perception of and loyalty towards car brands.
      - rightbyte 2y ago
        It is the price point only. A little bit sticking it to the man maybe, too. Also I believe there is no spyware in those cars, compared to fancy brands. But that might change on short notice.
        fragmede 2y ago
        Why would there be less spyware on the cheaper brands?
        rightbyte 2y ago
        No internet? Many cars got their own cell phone connection nowadays.
  - toyg 2y ago
    China still has a humongous "market of last resort": the internal masses, which can be leveraged with public money (i.e. the state could pay poor people to buy cars). This can keep manufacturers alive until the trade war cools down.
    - MrHamburger 2y ago
      That humungous internal market is also pretty poor to afford BEVs in a price tag which would have been sold in EU or USA, same like rest of the planet. Furthermore rest of the planet (expect few developed islands) have additional issues with non-existent infrastructure to support BEV.
      - Cumpiler69 2y ago
        >That humungous internal market is also pretty poor to afford BEVs in a price tag which would have been sold in EU or USA The US consumer has on average more purchasing power than the EU consumer, but BEH prices are roughly the same on both sides.
Cumpiler69 2y ago
>Get the prices down, and people will buy EVs. That sounds good and all, but how would you expect to get the prices down without loosing money and while still employing western workers at western standards of living? Prices don't come down magically just because you want them to. EVs also have the range/public charging issue buyers are fleeing from, not just the price alone. Once you exhausted the market of buyers who can install chargers at home, the rest is impossible to cater to when public charging infrastructure is so shitty and expensive compared to those who have it at home or tanking at gas stations. The government needs first to invest in cheap and plentiful public EV charging infrastructure if they wish to entice non-home-owners to switch from their ICEs. But when public chargers charge you through the nose for electricity (and loitering time!), they have shitty and buggy UX, or are broken half the time, why would you ever get an EV in favor of an ICE?
- pjmlp 2y ago
  The consequence being, that whatever deadlines goverments set for full EV transition will be ignored, or dropped, when the large majority of population keeps driving ICE.
  - Cumpiler69 2y ago
    It is, because the deadline for the EV switch in the EU was arbitrarily set on idealist wishful thinking that sounded good on paper, and not on calculated pragmatism based on economic potential, working class purchasing power, local automotive industry capabilities, public EV infrastructure investment and development, potential world conflicts and economic/trade issues, etc. It's easy for politicians to say "we want an amazing outcome in 15 years where everything is green" and for voters to agree with that, the issue comes when the rubber hits the road, especially as the politicians who made the original promise won't be in power anymore by then. I would also wish to look like Chris Hemsworth from Thor in 5 years time, but when I actually look into my genetics, diet and exercise regimen, that aint gonna happe without some very radical and mostly uncomfortable life changes that deep down I know I won't be able to do. I'm not gonna suddenly wake up with the six pack while I keep my existing lifestyle. Similarly, the EU is not gonna wake up to an EV future in 10 years while doing everything like before. EU politicians and EU voters wants idealist outcomes (cheap green energy, EVs everywhere, welfare state, affordable housing, good paying jobs with social benefits) without putting in the radical (and maybe even unrealistic) changes needed to achieve those goals: energy independence on the cheap, manufacturing independence, investing in research, innovation and start-ups, investing in defense independence, investing in public housing and infrastructure, etc

pstuart 2y ago

Bummer. It would be nice not have all battery eggs in China's basket.

lifestyleguru 2y ago
We're safe, the other half of petrol eggs we have in Saudi Arabia and Russia.
Cumpiler69 2y ago
Who could have foreseen this is what will happen when you(the west) decide to move all your manufacturing to another country just for a quick buck for the shareholders?
- Gud 2y ago
  There is still plenty of manufacturing happening both in Europe and the US. I work for a factory in Switzerland. Many villages in Switzerland have a factory producing some fine tuned gadget.
  - Cumpiler69 2y ago
    What are the salaries paid working at those factories? Do they pay RSUs? Offer WFH?

em500 2y ago

There's an interesting AMA on Reddit from a Northvolt engineer: https://old.reddit.com/r/sweden/comments/1g1xkmx/jag_%C3%A4r_ingenj%C3%B6r_p%C3%A5_northvolt_ama/ https://old.reddit.com/r/sweden/comments/1g1xkmx/jag_%C3%A4r... (Google translate works well on the old.reddit.com site). According to this (and other) reports, they never got their high volume production yields anywhere near that of their (Chinese, Japanese, Korean) competitors, which made their end products far too expensive. Geopolitics aside, they didn't have any competitive edge, it's difficult to see where they would get it, since both their raw materials and manufacturing equipment were majorly imported from Asia.

rightbyte 2y ago
Also, Northvolt had leadership with hubris. All talk and no batteries. If you want to rush building a 'giga factory' you need to pay up for skilled people. Which they didn't. You don't get relevant engineers and workers to move to the middle of snow-where for the same wage as they have now. And they tried to scale up production even before they were able to make proper batteries...
- lifestyleguru 2y ago
  Nothing attracts skilled labor better than perspective of paying 45% monthly contributions then begging the housing market to accept you, so you can pay another 40% of net salary on rent.
  - rightbyte 2y ago
    Rent? The town does rent control. There is nothing to rent. You can't outprice the locals with their queue time. Dunno how they thought there would be room to house like 4000 employees in such a small town on such a short notice. The effect on hireing is enormous. After you employeed all available able bodied locals you get desperate people happy to live in barracks.
    - lifestyleguru 2y ago

guenthert 2y ago

Er, they filed for chapter 11, bankruptcy protection. It's not the end of the road, but rather a cry for help.

MichaelZuo 2y ago

Why is this flagged?