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Am I the only one who thinks it's completely justified for leaders of both sides to be wanted for war crimes?? If someone assaults me and I retaliate by injuri

Am I the only one who thinks it's completely justified for leaders of both sides to be wanted for war crimes?? If someone assaults me and I retaliate by injuring their family members then both the assilant and me are both guilty for criminal assault. Maybe not a perfect analogy but that's what it seems has happened here...

adultSwim 2y ago
Warrants were issued for leaders on both sides. Also, the situation has structural asymmetries that are important to navigate.
tacheiordache 2y ago
No but this opinion is unjustifiably considered antisemitic and you couuld potentially have unwanted repercussions e.g. lose your job if you make it public. Such are the times we live in.
- 3vidence 2y ago
  For context, I'm not American and I would have trouble understanding how this could be conceived as antisemitic?? Also mentioned in another comment I do believe Isreal has a right to defend itself but not to commit war crimes against civilians... that seems to be the issue here.
  - maronato 2y ago
    It’s weaponized antisemitism. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weaponization_of_antisemitism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weaponization_of_antisemitis...
rasz 2y ago
Sure, like bullied kid getting suspended because all this trouble is because of him.
- 3vidence 2y ago
  Well again in the analogy the issue seems not to be Isreal defending itself (i do believe they have the right to do so as should any country). The issues seems to be retaliation against a civilian population. Really attacking civilians seems to be the major war crimes on both sides of this conflict
- tetromino_ 2y ago
  It's morally justified for a bullied kid to punch back (and punch hard). It's not morally justified for a bullied kid to chain the doors closed and set fire to the bully's apartment building.
klipt 2y ago
Doesn't seem to accomplish much in the age of remote work. Putin has had an arrest warrant for years and he just attended the BRICS summit remotely instead of in person. Since in theory they would be obligated to arrest him in person. But seemed they had no problem letting him attend by video call.
ipaddr 2y ago
How does that lineup with Ukraine. Would Zelensky and Putin and everyone who played a role including Biden get an arrest warrant?
- cwkoss 2y ago
  The idea of moral wars is a myth manufactured by the war propaganda machine. I wouldn't object to all three of them being tried. I think Zelensky probably has the strongest defense, but I'm not fully informed on the conflict.
  - ClassyJacket 2y ago
    So, just to be clear, you think any country that's invaded should just immediately surrender? So if I invade the US tomorrow with a sharpened stick, they have to hand their country over because any kind of defence is immoral?
    - maronato 2y ago
      This comment is just disingenuous. You know that isn’t what they meant.
    - cwkoss 2y ago
      https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2022/12/16/ukraine-must-investigate-alleged-war-crimes-by-its-forces https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2022/12/16/ukraine-must-i... "A controversial Amnesty International report asserted that Ukrainian military tactics put civilians in danger. Video footage has since been published suggesting that Ukrainian troops may have executed surrendering Russian officers in the town of Makiivka. Back in 2019, the International Criminal Court (ICC) determined that Ukrainian forces committed possible war crimes against Russian soldiers in eastern Ukraine. To be clear: none of these allegations draws moral or legal equivalency between the acts of Ukrainian and Russian forces. Any alleged crimes committed by Ukrainian officers pale in comparison to the aggression and barbarity Russian forces have demonstrated in Ukraine. But all atrocities must be accounted for, not just those of one’s enemies."
grvbck 2y ago
Yup, there is a legal concept called excessive self-defense.
- sureIy 2y ago
  It's completely reasonable to exterminate an entire ants colony if 5 ants bite you, or at least that's their logic here, including the "ants" part. But of course we know the "self-defense" part is just a cover for the underlying desire to destroy the colony to build a nice villa.
thrance 2y ago
Also it goes much deeper than that. They were many masscres in Palestine before october 7th, and in Israel as well... A solution would necessarily involves less violence, not more, and at this very instant Israel is the one doing most of it.
- babkayaga 2y ago
  not because hezbolla and hamas are not trying.
babkayaga 2y ago
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babkayaga 2y ago
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JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> then both the assilant and me are both guilty for criminal assault War is hell. But this war could have been conducted better. Yes, aid was being diverted by Hamas. But that doesn't mean you stop providing it, it means you do what you must to take control on the ground. The deaths from bombings, et cetera have not been found to be war crimes. The starvation, which was and continues to be avoidable, is.

adultSwim 2y ago

Warrants were issued for leaders on both sides. Also, the situation has structural asymmetries that are important to navigate.

tacheiordache 2y ago

No but this opinion is unjustifiably considered antisemitic and you couuld potentially have unwanted repercussions e.g. lose your job if you make it public. Such are the times we live in.

3vidence 2y ago
For context, I'm not American and I would have trouble understanding how this could be conceived as antisemitic?? Also mentioned in another comment I do believe Isreal has a right to defend itself but not to commit war crimes against civilians... that seems to be the issue here.
- maronato 2y ago
  It’s weaponized antisemitism. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weaponization_of_antisemitism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weaponization_of_antisemitis...

rasz 2y ago

Sure, like bullied kid getting suspended because all this trouble is because of him.

3vidence 2y ago
Well again in the analogy the issue seems not to be Isreal defending itself (i do believe they have the right to do so as should any country). The issues seems to be retaliation against a civilian population. Really attacking civilians seems to be the major war crimes on both sides of this conflict
tetromino_ 2y ago
It's morally justified for a bullied kid to punch back (and punch hard). It's not morally justified for a bullied kid to chain the doors closed and set fire to the bully's apartment building.

klipt 2y ago

Doesn't seem to accomplish much in the age of remote work. Putin has had an arrest warrant for years and he just attended the BRICS summit remotely instead of in person. Since in theory they would be obligated to arrest him in person. But seemed they had no problem letting him attend by video call.

ipaddr 2y ago

How does that lineup with Ukraine. Would Zelensky and Putin and everyone who played a role including Biden get an arrest warrant?

cwkoss 2y ago
The idea of moral wars is a myth manufactured by the war propaganda machine. I wouldn't object to all three of them being tried. I think Zelensky probably has the strongest defense, but I'm not fully informed on the conflict.
- ClassyJacket 2y ago
  So, just to be clear, you think any country that's invaded should just immediately surrender? So if I invade the US tomorrow with a sharpened stick, they have to hand their country over because any kind of defence is immoral?
  - maronato 2y ago
    This comment is just disingenuous. You know that isn’t what they meant.
  - cwkoss 2y ago
    https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2022/12/16/ukraine-must-investigate-alleged-war-crimes-by-its-forces https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2022/12/16/ukraine-must-i... "A controversial Amnesty International report asserted that Ukrainian military tactics put civilians in danger. Video footage has since been published suggesting that Ukrainian troops may have executed surrendering Russian officers in the town of Makiivka. Back in 2019, the International Criminal Court (ICC) determined that Ukrainian forces committed possible war crimes against Russian soldiers in eastern Ukraine. To be clear: none of these allegations draws moral or legal equivalency between the acts of Ukrainian and Russian forces. Any alleged crimes committed by Ukrainian officers pale in comparison to the aggression and barbarity Russian forces have demonstrated in Ukraine. But all atrocities must be accounted for, not just those of one’s enemies."

grvbck 2y ago

Yup, there is a legal concept called excessive self-defense.

sureIy 2y ago
It's completely reasonable to exterminate an entire ants colony if 5 ants bite you, or at least that's their logic here, including the "ants" part. But of course we know the "self-defense" part is just a cover for the underlying desire to destroy the colony to build a nice villa.

thrance 2y ago

Also it goes much deeper than that. They were many masscres in Palestine before october 7th, and in Israel as well... A solution would necessarily involves less violence, not more, and at this very instant Israel is the one doing most of it.

babkayaga 2y ago
not because hezbolla and hamas are not trying.

babkayaga 2y ago

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babkayaga 2y ago

[flagged]

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

> then both the assilant and me are both guilty for criminal assault War is hell. But this war could have been conducted better. Yes, aid was being diverted by Hamas. But that doesn't mean you stop providing it, it means you do what you must to take control on the ground. The deaths from bombings, et cetera have not been found to be war crimes. The starvation, which was and continues to be avoidable, is.