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You call it "looking away" (if I understand what that word means). I think that's incredibly wrong, actually. The army is part of Israeli society in a way that

by edanm 2y ago

You call it "looking away" (if I understand what that word means). I think that's incredibly wrong, actually. The army is part of Israeli society in a way that is very different to bigger countries. Some of these software developers are themselves reservists going into Gaza. Certainly 100% of them personally know people who are reservists involved in the war in some way. So I think it's much more accurate to say that the average Israeli is far more informed than the average non-Israeli about what is happening and how the army behaves. That shouldn't mean you automatically trust whatever Israelis say. But when you personally know dozens of people who tell you what the war is like, what the situation in Gaza is like, and most of whom come down on the side of "look, it's horrible, war is horrible, but the IDF is doing its best to protect civilians and not hurt civilains, and Hamas is doing its best to put civilians in the line of fire", or statements to that effect - when you personally know many people who say that, that counts for a lot in most Israeli's eyes. (Though I'll note, since the thread we're on is about the ICC warrant - one of the allegations is against witholding of aid, which is something that isn't specifically part of how the IDF is conducting the war.)

newspaper1 2y ago
> but the IDF is doing its best to protect civilians and not hurt civilains I (and most people) do not believe this at all. I've seen hundreds of images the IDF have taken themselves of war crimes including an entire genre of dressing up in the lingerie of murdered and displaced women. It's the engineers in the IDF that I'm most uncomfortable with!
- edanm 2y ago
  > I (and most people) do not believe this at all. I understand. But you yourself I believe have mentioned just how strong the IDF is compared to Hamas - it could easily (in terms of force) inflict 100x the damage, at far lower cost to itself. > I've seen hundreds of images the IDF have taken themselves of war crimes including an entire genre of dressing up in the lingerie of murdered and displaced women. While this is unprofessional and disgusting behavior, it does not come close to intentionally targeting civilians or not protecting civilians.
  - newspaper1 2y ago
    My morals aren't up for litigation. What I've seen people support is far beyond my limit and what I'm willing to accept. Looting civilians is a war crime btw.
renewiltord 2y ago
I have a general rule that I don't trust people's self-evaluation of morality. It's been my experience that even objectively very bad people will say that they are good people forced to do bad because of bad conditions. Nonetheless good people are forced to do bad things by bad conditions. Whether it is one or the other isn't usually determinable from the point of view of the participants.
- edanm 2y ago
  That's fair, and an outside view is usually a good idea. But I also have a general rule that you should never judge a whole group of people as inherently evil or immoral, without attempting to understand them on their own terms, see them as they see themselves. Very rarely, if ever, are large groups of people immoral or evil. (Though societies themselves can certainly immoral collectively.) And Israel is a Western society, mostly. Its values are largely the same values as the US or Europe. If people with those values self-reflect and decide they are not acting immorally on the whole, then it's worth at least considering that they might just have more knowledge and context about what's happening than outsiders.
  - bbqfog 2y ago
    > And Israel is a Western society, mostly. Its values are largely the same values as the US or Europe. So you don't think it's indigenous to the Middle East? Israel shares values with no one. I've never seen dozens of US soldiers dress up in the lingerie of murdered women.
    - edanm 2y ago
      Israel isn't "indigenous" or not, it's a country. I think the same as the historical consensus - there was a state called Israel where the Jews lived, they were ethnically cleansed by the Roman Empire. Call it whatever you want. > Israel shares values with no one. I've never seen dozens of US soldiers dress up in the lingerie of murdered women. Have you seen the pictures of US soldiers at Abu Ghraib? It's not hard to find pictures of some US soldiers doing bad things. Not that that excuses what the IDF soldiers did.

by edanm 2y ago

newspaper1 2y ago

> but the IDF is doing its best to protect civilians and not hurt civilains I (and most people) do not believe this at all. I've seen hundreds of images the IDF have taken themselves of war crimes including an entire genre of dressing up in the lingerie of murdered and displaced women. It's the engineers in the IDF that I'm most uncomfortable with!

edanm 2y ago
> I (and most people) do not believe this at all. I understand. But you yourself I believe have mentioned just how strong the IDF is compared to Hamas - it could easily (in terms of force) inflict 100x the damage, at far lower cost to itself. > I've seen hundreds of images the IDF have taken themselves of war crimes including an entire genre of dressing up in the lingerie of murdered and displaced women. While this is unprofessional and disgusting behavior, it does not come close to intentionally targeting civilians or not protecting civilians.
- newspaper1 2y ago
  My morals aren't up for litigation. What I've seen people support is far beyond my limit and what I'm willing to accept. Looting civilians is a war crime btw.

renewiltord 2y ago

I have a general rule that I don't trust people's self-evaluation of morality. It's been my experience that even objectively very bad people will say that they are good people forced to do bad because of bad conditions. Nonetheless good people are forced to do bad things by bad conditions. Whether it is one or the other isn't usually determinable from the point of view of the participants.

edanm 2y ago
That's fair, and an outside view is usually a good idea. But I also have a general rule that you should never judge a whole group of people as inherently evil or immoral, without attempting to understand them on their own terms, see them as they see themselves. Very rarely, if ever, are large groups of people immoral or evil. (Though societies themselves can certainly immoral collectively.) And Israel is a Western society, mostly. Its values are largely the same values as the US or Europe. If people with those values self-reflect and decide they are not acting immorally on the whole, then it's worth at least considering that they might just have more knowledge and context about what's happening than outsiders.
- bbqfog 2y ago
  > And Israel is a Western society, mostly. Its values are largely the same values as the US or Europe. So you don't think it's indigenous to the Middle East? Israel shares values with no one. I've never seen dozens of US soldiers dress up in the lingerie of murdered women.
  - edanm 2y ago
    Israel isn't "indigenous" or not, it's a country. I think the same as the historical consensus - there was a state called Israel where the Jews lived, they were ethnically cleansed by the Roman Empire. Call it whatever you want. > Israel shares values with no one. I've never seen dozens of US soldiers dress up in the lingerie of murdered women. Have you seen the pictures of US soldiers at Abu Ghraib? It's not hard to find pictures of some US soldiers doing bad things. Not that that excuses what the IDF soldiers did.