4 ms·

I haven't seen anyone talk about how the fleet of cars on US roads is now older than ever. Approximately 12 years now. That's 12 years of safety engineering imp

by chiph 2y ago

I haven't seen anyone talk about how the fleet of cars on US roads is now older than ever. Approximately 12 years now. That's 12 years of safety engineering improvements that aren't there. I am not advocating for government handouts or another "cash for clunkers" program to get them off the roads. But I think it's something that people should consider when shopping for a used vehicle.

WarOnPrivacy 2y ago
> That's 12 years of safety engineering improvements that aren't there. The last 12 years mostly replaced attention-preserving tactile controls with attention-demanding screens. Coexisting with that decreased ability is a race-to-the bottom where new vehicles kill visibility for everyone else (headlights blind ahead; oversizing erases visibility of every car around). I have never felt less safe on the road. And for the privilege, everyone's insurance rates climb and climb and climb - unreasonably punishing people who don't drive super-expensive-to-repair vehicles.
- chiph 2y ago
  You'll get no argument from me how automobile control system ergonomics have gone to shit. But I was thinking more about passive safety improvements from body structure engineering and auto-braking systems.
- Der_Einzige 2y ago
  You're so full of it and people like you coming and acting like we haven't objectively improved things do not help anyone at all. In the last 12 years we have seen the following: 1. Further proliferation of 360 cameras, blind spot monitors, rear and front cameras, digital rear view mirrors, and even some vehicles with in-dash blind-spot cameras and including them down-market. This directly translates to fewer fatalities, especially of children. 2. Further proliferation of HUDs and including them down-market, including augmented reality HUDs from the germans, allowing drivers to keep their eyes on the road for a larger percentage of the drive. This directly translates to fewer fatalities per mile 3. Better auto-high beam systems, including truly amazing systems from the Germans (to reduce the dazzle issue you brought up above). Also down-market movement of things like auto-turning lights to improve safety of turning at night. 4. Huge improvements in automatic front and rear emergency braking, including for people, cyclists, and children. This is likely the most impactful, and has massively reduced deaths, and minimized the harm of situations that do become harmful. 5. Some cars have automatic evasive turn systems, which occasionally intervene and prevent crashes before they happen similar to 4. 6. Some newer cars have safety stuff like automatic crash based loud noise systems (prepare ears for crash), automatic crash based seat belt pre-tension systems and similar systems to mitigate crash damage. Onstar automatically calls emergency services regardless if you pay and speeds up ambulance and thus life-saving care. 7. Carplay/Android Auto means less time fumbling with deciding where to go. Huge amounts of distraction caused by shit infotainment systems. So done with people acting like driving is worse because we took 1 or 2 steps back for every 7 we take forward. Ludditism is the human death drive externalized in a lesser form.
  - ultimafan 2y ago
    I agree with just about everything you've said except for the first point about 360/rear view cameras. Not going to argue that they're not useful or don't improve safety because they genuinely are and do. But to me those changes feel more like a requirement for the necessary evil of newer cars having absolutely horrid visibility with your own two eyes in the name of safety. I have two old daily drivers (one from the 80s, one from the early 2000s) and I'm always blown away how claustrophobic I feel borrowing a newer car from a coworker or family member concerning the window belt lines / pillars. I've never felt the need for cameras in older cars because you have near perfect visibility at any angle and even behind me just by turning my head. The combination of higher ride height, pillars all around that feel like tree trunks, higher ratio of panel to window height on the doors/windshields, and worse rear visibility from the driver's seat gives me the impression that I'm driving around in a tank or troop carrier not a modern car.
MikeKusold 2y ago
That’s because all of those safety engineering improvements have caused the average cost of a vehicle to skyrocket.
lmm 2y ago
Cars should be built to last, and safety standards were already high 12 years ago, at least in jurisdictions that bothered to check them. As a broader extension of the article's point, testing only crashes is a fundamentally flawed approach to the survivability onion, the safest car is the one that doesn't get into a collision in the first place, i.e. one that's smaller and provides the driver with better visibility. More recent cars may be more heavily armoured but less safe.

by chiph 2y ago

WarOnPrivacy 2y ago

> That's 12 years of safety engineering improvements that aren't there. The last 12 years mostly replaced attention-preserving tactile controls with attention-demanding screens. Coexisting with that decreased ability is a race-to-the bottom where new vehicles kill visibility for everyone else (headlights blind ahead; oversizing erases visibility of every car around). I have never felt less safe on the road. And for the privilege, everyone's insurance rates climb and climb and climb - unreasonably punishing people who don't drive super-expensive-to-repair vehicles.

chiph 2y ago
You'll get no argument from me how automobile control system ergonomics have gone to shit. But I was thinking more about passive safety improvements from body structure engineering and auto-braking systems.
Der_Einzige 2y ago
You're so full of it and people like you coming and acting like we haven't objectively improved things do not help anyone at all. In the last 12 years we have seen the following: 1. Further proliferation of 360 cameras, blind spot monitors, rear and front cameras, digital rear view mirrors, and even some vehicles with in-dash blind-spot cameras and including them down-market. This directly translates to fewer fatalities, especially of children. 2. Further proliferation of HUDs and including them down-market, including augmented reality HUDs from the germans, allowing drivers to keep their eyes on the road for a larger percentage of the drive. This directly translates to fewer fatalities per mile 3. Better auto-high beam systems, including truly amazing systems from the Germans (to reduce the dazzle issue you brought up above). Also down-market movement of things like auto-turning lights to improve safety of turning at night. 4. Huge improvements in automatic front and rear emergency braking, including for people, cyclists, and children. This is likely the most impactful, and has massively reduced deaths, and minimized the harm of situations that do become harmful. 5. Some cars have automatic evasive turn systems, which occasionally intervene and prevent crashes before they happen similar to 4. 6. Some newer cars have safety stuff like automatic crash based loud noise systems (prepare ears for crash), automatic crash based seat belt pre-tension systems and similar systems to mitigate crash damage. Onstar automatically calls emergency services regardless if you pay and speeds up ambulance and thus life-saving care. 7. Carplay/Android Auto means less time fumbling with deciding where to go. Huge amounts of distraction caused by shit infotainment systems. So done with people acting like driving is worse because we took 1 or 2 steps back for every 7 we take forward. Ludditism is the human death drive externalized in a lesser form.
- ultimafan 2y ago
  I agree with just about everything you've said except for the first point about 360/rear view cameras. Not going to argue that they're not useful or don't improve safety because they genuinely are and do. But to me those changes feel more like a requirement for the necessary evil of newer cars having absolutely horrid visibility with your own two eyes in the name of safety. I have two old daily drivers (one from the 80s, one from the early 2000s) and I'm always blown away how claustrophobic I feel borrowing a newer car from a coworker or family member concerning the window belt lines / pillars. I've never felt the need for cameras in older cars because you have near perfect visibility at any angle and even behind me just by turning my head. The combination of higher ride height, pillars all around that feel like tree trunks, higher ratio of panel to window height on the doors/windshields, and worse rear visibility from the driver's seat gives me the impression that I'm driving around in a tank or troop carrier not a modern car.

MikeKusold 2y ago

That’s because all of those safety engineering improvements have caused the average cost of a vehicle to skyrocket.

lmm 2y ago

Cars should be built to last, and safety standards were already high 12 years ago, at least in jurisdictions that bothered to check them. As a broader extension of the article's point, testing only crashes is a fundamentally flawed approach to the survivability onion, the safest car is the one that doesn't get into a collision in the first place, i.e. one that's smaller and provides the driver with better visibility. More recent cars may be more heavily armoured but less safe.