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Just to stick up for the Israeli software developer POV - most Israelis would completely disagree with you that genocide is happening in Gaza. You might think

by edanm 2y ago

Just to stick up for the Israeli software developer POV - most Israelis would completely disagree with you that genocide is happening in Gaza. You might think they're wrong - that's valid. But it's not that they're openly supporting genocide - they disagree with you on whether or not it is happening, which is a big difference.

newspaper1 2y ago
[flagged]
- Gibbon1 2y ago
  [flagged]
renewiltord 2y ago
Not to say it is or is not but isn’t that what everyone does? Wegschauen.
- edanm 2y ago
  You call it "looking away" (if I understand what that word means). I think that's incredibly wrong, actually. The army is part of Israeli society in a way that is very different to bigger countries. Some of these software developers are themselves reservists going into Gaza. Certainly 100% of them personally know people who are reservists involved in the war in some way. So I think it's much more accurate to say that the average Israeli is far more informed than the average non-Israeli about what is happening and how the army behaves. That shouldn't mean you automatically trust whatever Israelis say. But when you personally know dozens of people who tell you what the war is like, what the situation in Gaza is like, and most of whom come down on the side of "look, it's horrible, war is horrible, but the IDF is doing its best to protect civilians and not hurt civilains, and Hamas is doing its best to put civilians in the line of fire", or statements to that effect - when you personally know many people who say that, that counts for a lot in most Israeli's eyes. (Though I'll note, since the thread we're on is about the ICC warrant - one of the allegations is against witholding of aid, which is something that isn't specifically part of how the IDF is conducting the war.)
  - newspaper1 2y ago
    > but the IDF is doing its best to protect civilians and not hurt civilains I (and most people) do not believe this at all. I've seen hundreds of images the IDF have taken themselves of war crimes including an entire genre of dressing up in the lingerie of murdered and displaced women. It's the engineers in the IDF that I'm most uncomfortable with!
    - edanm 2y ago
      > I (and most people) do not believe this at all. I understand. But you yourself I believe have mentioned just how strong the IDF is compared to Hamas - it could easily (in terms of force) inflict 100x the damage, at far lower cost to itself. > I've seen hundreds of images the IDF have taken themselves of war crimes including an entire genre of dressing up in the lingerie of murdered and displaced women. While this is unprofessional and disgusting behavior, it does not come close to intentionally targeting civilians or not protecting civilians.
      - newspaper1 2y ago
        My morals aren't up for litigation. What I've seen people support is far beyond my limit and what I'm willing to accept. Looting civilians is a war crime btw.
  - renewiltord 2y ago
    I have a general rule that I don't trust people's self-evaluation of morality. It's been my experience that even objectively very bad people will say that they are good people forced to do bad because of bad conditions. Nonetheless good people are forced to do bad things by bad conditions. Whether it is one or the other isn't usually determinable from the point of view of the participants.
    - edanm 2y ago
      That's fair, and an outside view is usually a good idea. But I also have a general rule that you should never judge a whole group of people as inherently evil or immoral, without attempting to understand them on their own terms, see them as they see themselves. Very rarely, if ever, are large groups of people immoral or evil. (Though societies themselves can certainly immoral collectively.) And Israel is a Western society, mostly. Its values are largely the same values as the US or Europe. If people with those values self-reflect and decide they are not acting immorally on the whole, then it's worth at least considering that they might just have more knowledge and context about what's happening than outsiders.
kelnos 2y ago
> most Israelis would completely disagree with you that genocide is happening in Gaza Then my opinion is that at best they're ignorant or have fallen prey to propaganda and misinformation, and at worst they're liars who are ok with what is happening. Either way, not a good look. Beyond that, I think we need to stop getting so hung up on the term "genocide". Regardless of whether or not what's happening in Gaza satisfies the legal definition of genocide, we should not be ok with what Israel is doing there. (And to avoid the usual knee-jerk troll responses: no, we should not be ok with what Hamas has done either.)
- edanm 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - bbqfog 2y ago
    > You should also leave room for the possibility that the Israeli public is actually more informed than you are. Was the Nazi public more informed than the rest of the world? Just as Germany today isn't an "expert" in genocide because they committed it, Israelis don't "know more", they are the perpetrators of many historic crimes. They're literally living on stolen, ethnically cleansed land.
    - edanm 2y ago
      > Was the Nazi public more informed than the rest of the world? Yes, actually. I believe many Nazis knew more about what was going on during the Holocaust than most of the world did - the world only really understood what was happening after WW2. > Just as Germany today isn't an "expert" in genocide because they committed it, We're not talking about Israel 70 years from now. I'm talking about people who are there right now and tell us, in real time, what is happening. > They're literally living on stolen, ethnically cleansed land. The land wasn't "stolen". As for whether there was ethnic cleansing, that's a much debated topic. It is also, unfortunately, the sad reality is that about 100 million people worldwide have been ethnically cleansed since WW2, many of them (though certainly not all) in the aftermath of WW2.
- 2y ago

by edanm 2y ago

newspaper1 2y ago

[flagged]

Gibbon1 2y ago
[flagged]

renewiltord 2y ago

Not to say it is or is not but isn’t that what everyone does? Wegschauen.

edanm 2y ago
You call it "looking away" (if I understand what that word means). I think that's incredibly wrong, actually. The army is part of Israeli society in a way that is very different to bigger countries. Some of these software developers are themselves reservists going into Gaza. Certainly 100% of them personally know people who are reservists involved in the war in some way. So I think it's much more accurate to say that the average Israeli is far more informed than the average non-Israeli about what is happening and how the army behaves. That shouldn't mean you automatically trust whatever Israelis say. But when you personally know dozens of people who tell you what the war is like, what the situation in Gaza is like, and most of whom come down on the side of "look, it's horrible, war is horrible, but the IDF is doing its best to protect civilians and not hurt civilains, and Hamas is doing its best to put civilians in the line of fire", or statements to that effect - when you personally know many people who say that, that counts for a lot in most Israeli's eyes. (Though I'll note, since the thread we're on is about the ICC warrant - one of the allegations is against witholding of aid, which is something that isn't specifically part of how the IDF is conducting the war.)
- newspaper1 2y ago
  > but the IDF is doing its best to protect civilians and not hurt civilains I (and most people) do not believe this at all. I've seen hundreds of images the IDF have taken themselves of war crimes including an entire genre of dressing up in the lingerie of murdered and displaced women. It's the engineers in the IDF that I'm most uncomfortable with!
  - edanm 2y ago
    > I (and most people) do not believe this at all. I understand. But you yourself I believe have mentioned just how strong the IDF is compared to Hamas - it could easily (in terms of force) inflict 100x the damage, at far lower cost to itself. > I've seen hundreds of images the IDF have taken themselves of war crimes including an entire genre of dressing up in the lingerie of murdered and displaced women. While this is unprofessional and disgusting behavior, it does not come close to intentionally targeting civilians or not protecting civilians.
    - newspaper1 2y ago
      My morals aren't up for litigation. What I've seen people support is far beyond my limit and what I'm willing to accept. Looting civilians is a war crime btw.
- renewiltord 2y ago
  I have a general rule that I don't trust people's self-evaluation of morality. It's been my experience that even objectively very bad people will say that they are good people forced to do bad because of bad conditions. Nonetheless good people are forced to do bad things by bad conditions. Whether it is one or the other isn't usually determinable from the point of view of the participants.
  - edanm 2y ago
    That's fair, and an outside view is usually a good idea. But I also have a general rule that you should never judge a whole group of people as inherently evil or immoral, without attempting to understand them on their own terms, see them as they see themselves. Very rarely, if ever, are large groups of people immoral or evil. (Though societies themselves can certainly immoral collectively.) And Israel is a Western society, mostly. Its values are largely the same values as the US or Europe. If people with those values self-reflect and decide they are not acting immorally on the whole, then it's worth at least considering that they might just have more knowledge and context about what's happening than outsiders.

kelnos 2y ago

> most Israelis would completely disagree with you that genocide is happening in Gaza Then my opinion is that at best they're ignorant or have fallen prey to propaganda and misinformation, and at worst they're liars who are ok with what is happening. Either way, not a good look. Beyond that, I think we need to stop getting so hung up on the term "genocide". Regardless of whether or not what's happening in Gaza satisfies the legal definition of genocide, we should not be ok with what Israel is doing there. (And to avoid the usual knee-jerk troll responses: no, we should not be ok with what Hamas has done either.)

edanm 2y ago
[flagged]
- bbqfog 2y ago
  > You should also leave room for the possibility that the Israeli public is actually more informed than you are. Was the Nazi public more informed than the rest of the world? Just as Germany today isn't an "expert" in genocide because they committed it, Israelis don't "know more", they are the perpetrators of many historic crimes. They're literally living on stolen, ethnically cleansed land.
  - edanm 2y ago
    > Was the Nazi public more informed than the rest of the world? Yes, actually. I believe many Nazis knew more about what was going on during the Holocaust than most of the world did - the world only really understood what was happening after WW2. > Just as Germany today isn't an "expert" in genocide because they committed it, We're not talking about Israel 70 years from now. I'm talking about people who are there right now and tell us, in real time, what is happening. > They're literally living on stolen, ethnically cleansed land. The land wasn't "stolen". As for whether there was ethnic cleansing, that's a much debated topic. It is also, unfortunately, the sad reality is that about 100 million people worldwide have been ethnically cleansed since WW2, many of them (though certainly not all) in the aftermath of WW2.
2y ago