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Having run a software team with good estimates, I’m disappointed in some of the commentary of, “just make up a long or obscure estimate.” I don’t expect a consi

by tyleo 2y ago

Having run a software team with good estimates, I’m disappointed in some of the commentary of, “just make up a long or obscure estimate.” I don’t expect a considerable amount of unknowns to come up in a project unless you have changing requirements or bad planning. You can’t do anything about changing requirements so that can be forgiven. Poor planning cannot though.

necovek 2y ago
It usually centers on whether changing requirements are due to poor planning or not? I don't necessarily think it is, and I believe it's easily fixed by keeping the reason (expected value) for anything close to any requirements being passed down to engineering teams.
datadrivenangel 2y ago
Unreasonable stakeholders will absolutely hold you accountable to not meeting a schedule even when they're constantly changing requirements. And they can and will throw you under the bus for it. You are right though, that a decent team that does decent planning should be fairly accurate much of the time. And there are project management techniques to handle the remaining uncertainty.
- tuna74 2y ago
  If requirements change estimates change as well.
  - perrygeo 2y ago
    In theory, yes. In practice, if you try to change the estimate, you'll be shot down and asked to work harder. The people changing the requirements assume that software is infinitely malleable and any change is doable with a small amount of effort. After all the devs are smart so they'll figure it out, like they always do. To these people, asking for a change in estimate is indistinguishable from complaining or being lazy.
    - tuna74 2y ago
      Then estimates are useless in your organisation. There is not point in doing them in your case.
  - datadrivenangel 2y ago
    Yes, but stakeholders may not accept them... which is their problem, but they can make it your problem.
wkirby 2y ago
I think these comments come from a very naive, engineering-centric perspective. Good estimates aren't short estimates, nor are they estimates which keep management off your back. Good estimates are accurate estimates because they allow the rest of the organization to properly plan around engineering's deliverables, to properly staff and resource the engineering team, and to manage customer and client expectations. Arbitrary big estimates that are lies constructed to give ourselves buffer time are lazy and lead to mistrust between engineering and the rest of the organization. Even worse in our case (devs for hire), they lead to lost clients and lost revenue. Clear communication around capabilities, expectations, and deliverables has been absolutely essential to our company staying afloat for the past 12 years.

by tyleo 2y ago

necovek 2y ago

It usually centers on whether changing requirements are due to poor planning or not? I don't necessarily think it is, and I believe it's easily fixed by keeping the reason (expected value) for anything close to any requirements being passed down to engineering teams.

datadrivenangel 2y ago

Unreasonable stakeholders will absolutely hold you accountable to not meeting a schedule even when they're constantly changing requirements. And they can and will throw you under the bus for it. You are right though, that a decent team that does decent planning should be fairly accurate much of the time. And there are project management techniques to handle the remaining uncertainty.

tuna74 2y ago
If requirements change estimates change as well.
- perrygeo 2y ago
  In theory, yes. In practice, if you try to change the estimate, you'll be shot down and asked to work harder. The people changing the requirements assume that software is infinitely malleable and any change is doable with a small amount of effort. After all the devs are smart so they'll figure it out, like they always do. To these people, asking for a change in estimate is indistinguishable from complaining or being lazy.
  - tuna74 2y ago
    Then estimates are useless in your organisation. There is not point in doing them in your case.
- datadrivenangel 2y ago
  Yes, but stakeholders may not accept them... which is their problem, but they can make it your problem.

wkirby 2y ago

I think these comments come from a very naive, engineering-centric perspective. Good estimates aren't short estimates, nor are they estimates which keep management off your back. Good estimates are accurate estimates because they allow the rest of the organization to properly plan around engineering's deliverables, to properly staff and resource the engineering team, and to manage customer and client expectations. Arbitrary big estimates that are lies constructed to give ourselves buffer time are lazy and lead to mistrust between engineering and the rest of the organization. Even worse in our case (devs for hire), they lead to lost clients and lost revenue. Clear communication around capabilities, expectations, and deliverables has been absolutely essential to our company staying afloat for the past 12 years.