6 ms·

I don't necessarily think you're wrong, but drawing any conclusions from random people on Twitter seems like a mistake. They might not be human, they might not

I don't necessarily think you're wrong, but drawing any conclusions from random people on Twitter seems like a mistake. They might not be human, they might not be Israeli, and they might not be representative of Israel's 9 million people. I wouldn't want anybody to judge me based on how English-speaking Twitter accounts behave.

newspaper1 2y ago
[flagged]
- burkaman 2y ago
  Definitely valid to see what people you know are thinking (that's the whole point of the site), I just don't like the idea of believing you can see "what most Israelis are thinking".
  - mandmandam 2y ago
    ... But you can. There's been many polls taken, showing a clear majority are happy with the situation or wish the killing were going quicker. I see no reason not to believe them.
- edanm 2y ago
  Just to stick up for the Israeli software developer POV - most Israelis would completely disagree with you that genocide is happening in Gaza. You might think they're wrong - that's valid. But it's not that they're openly supporting genocide - they disagree with you on whether or not it is happening, which is a big difference.
  - newspaper1 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - Gibbon1 2y ago
      [flagged]
  - renewiltord 2y ago
    Not to say it is or is not but isn’t that what everyone does? Wegschauen.
    - edanm 2y ago
      You call it "looking away" (if I understand what that word means). I think that's incredibly wrong, actually. The army is part of Israeli society in a way that is very different to bigger countries. Some of these software developers are themselves reservists going into Gaza. Certainly 100% of them personally know people who are reservists involved in the war in some way. So I think it's much more accurate to say that the average Israeli is far more informed than the average non-Israeli about what is happening and how the army behaves. That shouldn't mean you automatically trust whatever Israelis say. But when you personally know dozens of people who tell you what the war is like, what the situation in Gaza is like, and most of whom come down on the side of "look, it's horrible, war is horrible, but the IDF is doing its best to protect civilians and not hurt civilains, and Hamas is doing its best to put civilians in the line of fire", or statements to that effect - when you personally know many people who say that, that counts for a lot in most Israeli's eyes. (Though I'll note, since the thread we're on is about the ICC warrant - one of the allegations is against witholding of aid, which is something that isn't specifically part of how the IDF is conducting the war.)
      - newspaper1 2y ago
        > but the IDF is doing its best to protect civilians and not hurt civilains I (and most people) do not believe this at all. I've seen hundreds of images the IDF have taken themselves of war crimes including an entire genre of dressing up in the lingerie of murdered and displaced women. It's the engineers in the IDF that I'm most uncomfortable with!
        edanm 2y ago
        > I (and most people) do not believe this at all. I understand. But you yourself I believe have mentioned just how strong the IDF is compared to Hamas - it could easily (in terms of force) inflict 100x the damage, at far lower cost to itself. > I've seen hundreds of images the IDF have taken themselves of war crimes including an entire genre of dressing up in the lingerie of murdered and displaced women. While this is unprofessional and disgusting behavior, it does not come close to intentionally targeting civilians or not protecting civilians.
  - kelnos 2y ago
    > most Israelis would completely disagree with you that genocide is happening in Gaza Then my opinion is that at best they're ignorant or have fallen prey to propaganda and misinformation, and at worst they're liars who are ok with what is happening. Either way, not a good look. Beyond that, I think we need to stop getting so hung up on the term "genocide". Regardless of whether or not what's happening in Gaza satisfies the legal definition of genocide, we should not be ok with what Israel is doing there. (And to avoid the usual knee-jerk troll responses: no, we should not be ok with what Hamas has done either.)
    - edanm 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - bbqfog 2y ago
        > You should also leave room for the possibility that the Israeli public is actually more informed than you are. Was the Nazi public more informed than the rest of the world? Just as Germany today isn't an "expert" in genocide because they committed it, Israelis don't "know more", they are the perpetrators of many historic crimes. They're literally living on stolen, ethnically cleansed land.
        edanm 2y ago
        > Was the Nazi public more informed than the rest of the world? Yes, actually. I believe many Nazis knew more about what was going on during the Holocaust than most of the world did - the world only really understood what was happening after WW2. > Just as Germany today isn't an "expert" in genocide because they committed it, We're not talking about Israel 70 years from now. I'm talking about people who are there right now and tell us, in real time, what is happening. > They're literally living on stolen, ethnically cleansed land. The land wasn't "stolen". As for whether there was ethnic cleansing, that's a much debated topic. It is also, unfortunately, the sad reality is that about 100 million people worldwide have been ethnically cleansed since WW2, many of them (though certainly not all) in the aftermath of WW2.
    - 2y ago
- klipt 2y ago
  [flagged]
alexlll862 2y ago
The IDF and elected islraelis officials were openly genicidal and bragged about killing civilians. It wasn't just random people.

newspaper1 2y ago

[flagged]

burkaman 2y ago
Definitely valid to see what people you know are thinking (that's the whole point of the site), I just don't like the idea of believing you can see "what most Israelis are thinking".
- mandmandam 2y ago
  ... But you can. There's been many polls taken, showing a clear majority are happy with the situation or wish the killing were going quicker. I see no reason not to believe them.
edanm 2y ago
Just to stick up for the Israeli software developer POV - most Israelis would completely disagree with you that genocide is happening in Gaza. You might think they're wrong - that's valid. But it's not that they're openly supporting genocide - they disagree with you on whether or not it is happening, which is a big difference.
- newspaper1 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - Gibbon1 2y ago
    [flagged]
- renewiltord 2y ago
  Not to say it is or is not but isn’t that what everyone does? Wegschauen.
  - edanm 2y ago
    You call it "looking away" (if I understand what that word means). I think that's incredibly wrong, actually. The army is part of Israeli society in a way that is very different to bigger countries. Some of these software developers are themselves reservists going into Gaza. Certainly 100% of them personally know people who are reservists involved in the war in some way. So I think it's much more accurate to say that the average Israeli is far more informed than the average non-Israeli about what is happening and how the army behaves. That shouldn't mean you automatically trust whatever Israelis say. But when you personally know dozens of people who tell you what the war is like, what the situation in Gaza is like, and most of whom come down on the side of "look, it's horrible, war is horrible, but the IDF is doing its best to protect civilians and not hurt civilains, and Hamas is doing its best to put civilians in the line of fire", or statements to that effect - when you personally know many people who say that, that counts for a lot in most Israeli's eyes. (Though I'll note, since the thread we're on is about the ICC warrant - one of the allegations is against witholding of aid, which is something that isn't specifically part of how the IDF is conducting the war.)
    - newspaper1 2y ago
      > but the IDF is doing its best to protect civilians and not hurt civilains I (and most people) do not believe this at all. I've seen hundreds of images the IDF have taken themselves of war crimes including an entire genre of dressing up in the lingerie of murdered and displaced women. It's the engineers in the IDF that I'm most uncomfortable with!
      - edanm 2y ago
        > I (and most people) do not believe this at all. I understand. But you yourself I believe have mentioned just how strong the IDF is compared to Hamas - it could easily (in terms of force) inflict 100x the damage, at far lower cost to itself. > I've seen hundreds of images the IDF have taken themselves of war crimes including an entire genre of dressing up in the lingerie of murdered and displaced women. While this is unprofessional and disgusting behavior, it does not come close to intentionally targeting civilians or not protecting civilians.
- kelnos 2y ago
  > most Israelis would completely disagree with you that genocide is happening in Gaza Then my opinion is that at best they're ignorant or have fallen prey to propaganda and misinformation, and at worst they're liars who are ok with what is happening. Either way, not a good look. Beyond that, I think we need to stop getting so hung up on the term "genocide". Regardless of whether or not what's happening in Gaza satisfies the legal definition of genocide, we should not be ok with what Israel is doing there. (And to avoid the usual knee-jerk troll responses: no, we should not be ok with what Hamas has done either.)
  - edanm 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - bbqfog 2y ago
      > You should also leave room for the possibility that the Israeli public is actually more informed than you are. Was the Nazi public more informed than the rest of the world? Just as Germany today isn't an "expert" in genocide because they committed it, Israelis don't "know more", they are the perpetrators of many historic crimes. They're literally living on stolen, ethnically cleansed land.
      - edanm 2y ago
        > Was the Nazi public more informed than the rest of the world? Yes, actually. I believe many Nazis knew more about what was going on during the Holocaust than most of the world did - the world only really understood what was happening after WW2. > Just as Germany today isn't an "expert" in genocide because they committed it, We're not talking about Israel 70 years from now. I'm talking about people who are there right now and tell us, in real time, what is happening. > They're literally living on stolen, ethnically cleansed land. The land wasn't "stolen". As for whether there was ethnic cleansing, that's a much debated topic. It is also, unfortunately, the sad reality is that about 100 million people worldwide have been ethnically cleansed since WW2, many of them (though certainly not all) in the aftermath of WW2.
  - 2y ago
klipt 2y ago
[flagged]

alexlll862 2y ago

The IDF and elected islraelis officials were openly genicidal and bragged about killing civilians. It wasn't just random people.