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> get serious about anti-cell phone technology for the driver’s seat. How does this work?

by 15155 2y ago

foooorsyth 2y ago
It remains to be defined, but some of the technology is already there. We have driver monitoring systems. We know which device is paired to the infotainment system. That device could be physically sequestered from driver access while the vehicle is in gear (via NFC, for example). I don’t want my car to be an arm of the nanny state. I don’t want insurance companies spying on my drives or owning my driver monitoring data. But, there could be a simple “place the connected device on this pad and strap it in while you drive” type system, that actually attempts to enforce the policy. Does it get hard once multiple people/devices get in the car? Sure. Could individual drivers just bring a second device along to defeat it? Yes. But for the average solo driver that doesn’t pre mediate their own misbehavior, it could reduce distraction without trampling on privacy or significantly added nuisance.
- 15155 2y ago
  > But, there could be a simple “place the connected device on this pad and strap it in while you drive” type system Why do I have to comply? Is my phone not allowed to be used while in motion or something? Or is this required just to access the infotainment system (hello, car-only phone!)? If you're putting some kind of radio in my vehicle that tells my (and every passenger's phone) to shut off, I'm going to abuse this signal and broadcast it far more widely than any car would. And then just remove, disable, or block the radio. > Does it get hard once multiple people/devices get in the car? It doesn't just become difficult, it becomes logically impossible. Current, common radio technology isn't good enough to isolate the driver's seat. --- Also: good luck getting any technical chain of trust to work and stay safe/secret between numerous phone and automobile manufacturers. Nobody has been able to achieve this with multi-manufacturer DRM so far - DVD, Bluray, etc. Apple is the exception with regards to key material security: auto manufacturers stand no chance, Xiaomi doesn't care, and my Google Pixel is rooted. Before phones there were DVD playing head units in cars: parking and GPS bypasses have existed for these for at least 20 years.
  - foooorsyth 2y ago
    >common radio technology isn't good enough to isolate the driver's seat Look man, you don’t know what you’re talking about. UWB can easily position a device in a vehicle. BT direction finding is also quite promising. But I’m not suggesting any advanced locating, let alone a jammer (lol). I’m literally just suggesting an NFC pad with a phone “seat belt” for the primary device connected to the infotainment. Car makes a beeping noise until you rest the phone in the safe spot. That’s it. Nothing any more extreme than existing seat belt and speed limit warnings (which save lives despite their nuisance). t. Actual automotive engineer for a major OEM that works on infotainment & mobile software, Bluetooth, UWB, & future RF
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - 15155 2y ago
      > for the primary device connected to the infotainment Why would I pair it?
      - foooorsyth 2y ago
        Because on solo drives, your user experience would be severely diminished. People like CarPlay, Android Auto, and BT BR/EDR profiles. Want to guess the percentage of owners that NEVER pair a primary device in modern cars? It’s almost zero. Do you want a pat on the back for defeating the imagined safety mechanism? You can also buy seat belt plugs to turn the seat belt chime off. Very few people end up doing this in practice (because it’s stupid). What is your specific aversion to your car expecting you to separate control of your phone while driving alone? Assume you have HFP, A2DP, and/or CarPlay/Android Auto with voice control. Why do you need physical control of your phone while your car is in gear/moving? You don’t.
      - fragmede 2y ago
        to get it to use the car stereo (and screen) instead of the shitty little ones on your phone.
avidiax 2y ago
Easy, don't focus on the cell phone, focus on the driver's focus. Mandate driver attention monitoring, and require that prolonged inattention (i.e. N seconds continuous, or N seconds of the past 3 minutes) results in escalating consequences, e.g. a warning chime, followed by activation of the hazard lights, followed by cutting the throttle and engaging lane keeping assist if available, and with several minutes continuous inattention, automatically call emergency services if possible. Ideally, phone manufacturers and car makers could work together so that the driver inattention chime automatically locks the phone and tells the driver to pay attention (or tells the passenger to tell the driver to pay attention).
- 15155 2y ago
  Hello, Big Brother. Why not ban all old phones and cars too, to really ensure enforcement of this scheme?
  - avidiax 2y ago
    Hardly big brother to say that you should be required to pay attention when driving, and this all stays on-vehicle until you've been gone so long that it must be a medical emergency.
ceejayoz 2y ago
My car won't let me lock the keys in the trunk; it'll pop back open. It seems to be quite precise - leaving them on top of the trunk doesn't trigger it, nor does having them in the back seat (right next to it). (Very confusing the first time, when you don't realize that's what the issue is.) I'd imagine something similar is at least possible.
- 15155 2y ago
  The issue is that this technology isn't that specific. Your passengers will not be able to use their devices.
  - ceejayoz 2y ago
    I'm trying to address that aspect by noting the fairly high specificity of the "you're locking your keys in the trunk" sensors. If you've ever used an Apple AirTag, they're even better for this; my phone could easily tell me which seat an AirTag is sitting in.
  - bluGill 2y ago
    Why not? My 2012 minivan has wireless headphones that don't work in the front two seats (annoying when you are in the navigator seat trying to get them setup for a young kid in the back who can't do it themself). I get it is a tricky problem, but it is one we can solve.

> get serious about anti-cell phone technology for the driver’s seat. How does this work?

by 15155 2y ago

> get serious about anti-cell phone technology for the driver’s seat. How does this work?

It remains to be defined, but some of the technology is already there. We have driver monitoring systems. We know which device is paired to the infotainment system. That device could be physically sequestered from driver access while the vehicle is in gear (via NFC, for example). I don’t want my car to be an arm of the nanny state. I don’t want insurance companies spying on my drives or owning my driver monitoring data. But, there could be a simple “place the connected device on this pad and strap it in while you drive” type system, that actually attempts to enforce the policy. Does it get hard once multiple people/devices get in the car? Sure. Could individual drivers just bring a second device along to defeat it? Yes. But for the average solo driver that doesn’t pre mediate their own misbehavior, it could reduce distraction without trampling on privacy or significantly added nuisance.

15155 2y ago
> But, there could be a simple “place the connected device on this pad and strap it in while you drive” type system Why do I have to comply? Is my phone not allowed to be used while in motion or something? Or is this required just to access the infotainment system (hello, car-only phone!)? If you're putting some kind of radio in my vehicle that tells my (and every passenger's phone) to shut off, I'm going to abuse this signal and broadcast it far more widely than any car would. And then just remove, disable, or block the radio. > Does it get hard once multiple people/devices get in the car? It doesn't just become difficult, it becomes logically impossible. Current, common radio technology isn't good enough to isolate the driver's seat. --- Also: good luck getting any technical chain of trust to work and stay safe/secret between numerous phone and automobile manufacturers. Nobody has been able to achieve this with multi-manufacturer DRM so far - DVD, Bluray, etc. Apple is the exception with regards to key material security: auto manufacturers stand no chance, Xiaomi doesn't care, and my Google Pixel is rooted. Before phones there were DVD playing head units in cars: parking and GPS bypasses have existed for these for at least 20 years.
- foooorsyth 2y ago
  >common radio technology isn't good enough to isolate the driver's seat Look man, you don’t know what you’re talking about. UWB can easily position a device in a vehicle. BT direction finding is also quite promising. But I’m not suggesting any advanced locating, let alone a jammer (lol). I’m literally just suggesting an NFC pad with a phone “seat belt” for the primary device connected to the infotainment. Car makes a beeping noise until you rest the phone in the safe spot. That’s it. Nothing any more extreme than existing seat belt and speed limit warnings (which save lives despite their nuisance). t. Actual automotive engineer for a major OEM that works on infotainment & mobile software, Bluetooth, UWB, & future RF
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - 15155 2y ago
    > for the primary device connected to the infotainment Why would I pair it?
    - foooorsyth 2y ago
      Because on solo drives, your user experience would be severely diminished. People like CarPlay, Android Auto, and BT BR/EDR profiles. Want to guess the percentage of owners that NEVER pair a primary device in modern cars? It’s almost zero. Do you want a pat on the back for defeating the imagined safety mechanism? You can also buy seat belt plugs to turn the seat belt chime off. Very few people end up doing this in practice (because it’s stupid). What is your specific aversion to your car expecting you to separate control of your phone while driving alone? Assume you have HFP, A2DP, and/or CarPlay/Android Auto with voice control. Why do you need physical control of your phone while your car is in gear/moving? You don’t.
    - fragmede 2y ago
      to get it to use the car stereo (and screen) instead of the shitty little ones on your phone.

avidiax 2y ago

Easy, don't focus on the cell phone, focus on the driver's focus. Mandate driver attention monitoring, and require that prolonged inattention (i.e. N seconds continuous, or N seconds of the past 3 minutes) results in escalating consequences, e.g. a warning chime, followed by activation of the hazard lights, followed by cutting the throttle and engaging lane keeping assist if available, and with several minutes continuous inattention, automatically call emergency services if possible. Ideally, phone manufacturers and car makers could work together so that the driver inattention chime automatically locks the phone and tells the driver to pay attention (or tells the passenger to tell the driver to pay attention).

15155 2y ago
Hello, Big Brother. Why not ban all old phones and cars too, to really ensure enforcement of this scheme?
- avidiax 2y ago
  Hardly big brother to say that you should be required to pay attention when driving, and this all stays on-vehicle until you've been gone so long that it must be a medical emergency.

ceejayoz 2y ago

My car won't let me lock the keys in the trunk; it'll pop back open. It seems to be quite precise - leaving them on top of the trunk doesn't trigger it, nor does having them in the back seat (right next to it). (Very confusing the first time, when you don't realize that's what the issue is.) I'd imagine something similar is at least possible.

15155 2y ago
The issue is that this technology isn't that specific. Your passengers will not be able to use their devices.
- ceejayoz 2y ago
  I'm trying to address that aspect by noting the fairly high specificity of the "you're locking your keys in the trunk" sensors. If you've ever used an Apple AirTag, they're even better for this; my phone could easily tell me which seat an AirTag is sitting in.
- bluGill 2y ago
  Why not? My 2012 minivan has wireless headphones that don't work in the front two seats (annoying when you are in the navigator seat trying to get them setup for a young kid in the back who can't do it themself). I get it is a tricky problem, but it is one we can solve.