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> hope it pulls to sleep the opinions of those (very stupid) people saying things like "Russian nukes don't even work!". How does this incident relate to the i

> hope it pulls to sleep the opinions of those (very stupid) people saying things like "Russian nukes don't even work!". How does this incident relate to the issue of the Russians having nuclear capability? All we see here are missiles delivering a conventional payload (or probably no payload at all) next door.

myrmidon 2y ago
This missile type is basically designed specifically to hit European cities with nuclear payloads as efficiently as possible (relatively small missile, with just enough range to cover Europe and a MIRV design makes absolutely no sense for non-nuclear payloads). It is also a very modern design... The point about Russia possibly testing that their ICBMs reliably avoid missile defense is also a very interesting perspective, though.
- DecoySalamander 2y ago
  It doesn't really matter how well Russian ICBMs can evade missile defenses. An actual all-out nuclear attack would be fatal for the EU, a response to that attack would be fatal for Russia. So all we really have here is posturing.
  - paganel 2y ago
    Trying to ignore MAD or limited nuclear war and treating them like they won't ever happen is beyond crazy, not sure what they feed you people there in the West in terms of propaganda but for sure it's working. Crazy stuff.
    - DecoySalamander 2y ago
      This is just nuclear fearmongering, an important tool in the Russian political arsenal, but that's all it is. And the best proof of that is the fact that we are having this conversation right now. The Soviets didn't use nuclear weapons, despite all the Cold War tensions, despite having an ideological grip on society and an actual arsenal to rival the US. The idea that Russians of today are capable of collective suicide, after decades of disillusionment and material decline, is patently ridiculous.
      - ossobuco 2y ago
        It's not "collective suicide" when they feel backed in a corner without alternatives, and that's how they feel whether you think it's legitimate or not. The Soviets didn't use nuclear weapons because they've never been in the situation we're trying to put Russia in now.
        aguaviva 2y ago
        Except they were in a very similar situation not too long ago of course, in a country called Afghanistan. In which their leadership ultimately chose to do the only right and pragmatic thing. Rather than bleed the country's resources out indefinitely over a conflict which (all their bluster at the time notwithstanding) it knew perfectly well to be in no way existential, and, exactly like the current conflict -- entirely symbolic.
        ossobuco 2y ago
        As I said, > and that's how they feel whether you think it's legitimate or not
        aguaviva 2y ago
        More like how the aggressor says it "feels". Whether you accept its statements at face value is up to you.
        ossobuco 2y ago
        I accept it the same way I accept when a dog feels threatened by me, even if I know I'm just trying to pet it. I'm not going to risk a bite by forcing my hand; I'll make it feel safe first. That will only work if I have good intentions, obviously.
        aguaviva 2y ago
        Except it's not the "dog" that you're interacting with. But rather, the dog's owner. You know, the man behind the curtain.

myrmidon 2y ago

This missile type is basically designed specifically to hit European cities with nuclear payloads as efficiently as possible (relatively small missile, with just enough range to cover Europe and a MIRV design makes absolutely no sense for non-nuclear payloads). It is also a very modern design... The point about Russia possibly testing that their ICBMs reliably avoid missile defense is also a very interesting perspective, though.

DecoySalamander 2y ago
It doesn't really matter how well Russian ICBMs can evade missile defenses. An actual all-out nuclear attack would be fatal for the EU, a response to that attack would be fatal for Russia. So all we really have here is posturing.
- paganel 2y ago
  Trying to ignore MAD or limited nuclear war and treating them like they won't ever happen is beyond crazy, not sure what they feed you people there in the West in terms of propaganda but for sure it's working. Crazy stuff.
  - DecoySalamander 2y ago
    This is just nuclear fearmongering, an important tool in the Russian political arsenal, but that's all it is. And the best proof of that is the fact that we are having this conversation right now. The Soviets didn't use nuclear weapons, despite all the Cold War tensions, despite having an ideological grip on society and an actual arsenal to rival the US. The idea that Russians of today are capable of collective suicide, after decades of disillusionment and material decline, is patently ridiculous.
    - ossobuco 2y ago
      It's not "collective suicide" when they feel backed in a corner without alternatives, and that's how they feel whether you think it's legitimate or not. The Soviets didn't use nuclear weapons because they've never been in the situation we're trying to put Russia in now.
      - aguaviva 2y ago
        Except they were in a very similar situation not too long ago of course, in a country called Afghanistan. In which their leadership ultimately chose to do the only right and pragmatic thing. Rather than bleed the country's resources out indefinitely over a conflict which (all their bluster at the time notwithstanding) it knew perfectly well to be in no way existential, and, exactly like the current conflict -- entirely symbolic.
        ossobuco 2y ago
        As I said, > and that's how they feel whether you think it's legitimate or not
        aguaviva 2y ago
        More like how the aggressor says it "feels". Whether you accept its statements at face value is up to you.
        ossobuco 2y ago
        I accept it the same way I accept when a dog feels threatened by me, even if I know I'm just trying to pet it. I'm not going to risk a bite by forcing my hand; I'll make it feel safe first. That will only work if I have good intentions, obviously.
        aguaviva 2y ago
        Except it's not the "dog" that you're interacting with. But rather, the dog's owner. You know, the man behind the curtain.