5 ms·

What is the point of the ICC? Russia doesn't recognize it, Israel doesn't recognize it and even the United States doesn't recognize it. I am confused at what

What is the point of the ICC? Russia doesn't recognize it, Israel doesn't recognize it and even the United States doesn't recognize it. I am confused at what these warrants even mean.

tuvocoical 2y ago
In this case, to make a political statement against Israel and their leadership. Note that the only member of Hamas indicted, Mohammed Deif, will never see a day in court. As the ICC already knows, he was killed in an airstrike earlier this year.
- ktallett 2y ago
  Since there has been no proof of his death bar the announcements from Israel, it is sensible to consider him as a wanted man until there is concrete evidence he is dead.
  - tuvocoical 2y ago
    https://english.aawsat.com/arab-world/5077358-new-evidence-suggests-death-qassam-brigades-leader https://english.aawsat.com/arab-world/5077358-new-evidence-s... Hamas sources have also confimed this.
DasIch 2y ago
In practice these warrants mean that they cannot travel to any country that does recognize the ICC without being arrested, which means they almost certainly won't.
- jcranmer 2y ago
  Just like how Putin couldn't travel to, say, South Africa, after a warrant was issued for his arrest. Oh wait, South Africa declined to enforce the ICC arrest warrant in that case. I don't see this meaningfully constraining Netanyahu's foreign travel options.
  - runarberg 2y ago
    It would be politically very risky for any European democracy to not enforce this arrest warrant, much more so than for South Africa or Mongolia. Israel is not popular among the public in Europe, and if a government invites him for a political visit, and don’t arrest him, that government will have to pay for that in the next election (and probably sooner, with mass demonstration and public unrest). Now, lets talk about Putin’s visit to South Africa. So Putin was scheduled to visit a BRICS summit in South Africa despite the ICC arrest warrant. South Africa claimed they wouldn’t enforce the arrest warrant. People got very mad. South Africa, in response, declared that Putin would only participate in the summit remotely, where the arrest warrant couldn’t be enforced. Now this was obviously a way to bypass the ICC warrant, and the stunt did not go well in the general public. In the next election the ANC, the governing party at the time, lost their parliamentary majority for the first time since South Africa became a democracy in 1994. Now South Africans had several other reasons to ditch the ANC, but this stunt certainly didn’t help.
    - xenospn 2y ago
      [flagged]
  - aguaviva 2y ago
    Oh wait, South Africa is just one country. In a great many other countries, including nearly all Western countries, the warrant is still in effect. And even in the South African case: the government's decision was considered quite tenuous, which is why Putin cancelled his visit, in was was considered to be a major diplomatic setback at the time. So at the end of the day -- the warrant still had significant effect, and fulfilled its purpose.
  - dotancohen 2y ago
    Ironic considering that South Africa was the one who pursued this case against Israel.
- nickff 2y ago
  ICC member Mongolia didn't arrest Putin when he visited. https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/ukraine-situation-icc-pre-trial-chamber-ii-finds-mongolia-failed-cooperate-arrest-and https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/ukraine-situation-icc-pre-trial...
  - aguaviva 2y ago
    The fact that it's the only country he's been able to visit since the warrant was issued (aside from North Korea) indicates that, by and large -- it's working as intended.
    - ganeshkrishnan 2y ago
      >The fact that it's the only country he's been able to visit since the warrant was issued Putin has visited around 20 countries after this ICC warrant including UAE, Saudi Arabia, China, Armenia, Vietnam , India (planned), Uzbekistan ... Start here and start counting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_international_presidential_trips_made_by_Vladimir_Putin#2022 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_international_presiden... But I know you wont. Your response will be shifting some goal posts like "these are not real countries because they don't exist in my coloring book"
      - aguaviva 2y ago
        I stand corrected: "The fact that he's only been able to visit a relative handful of countries -- nearly all of which were traditional Cold War allies (and several of these being current or former vassal states) -- indicates that, by and large, the warrant is working as intended." BTW the number is 9, not 20.
        nickff 2y ago
        Not grandparent, but where are you getting 9? I get 16 from the Wiki: Tajikistan Turkmenistan Iran Uzbekistan Kazakhstan Armenia Kyrgyzstan Belarus China United Arab Emirates Saudi Arabia North Korea Vietnam Azerbaijan Mongolia Turkmenistan
runarberg 2y ago
There have been several pundits with opinion on the matter, you’ll find quite a few in any news source (personally I recommend al-Jazeera). The gist of it is that this will have implication mostly around travels of Israeli officials to Europe. We might also see a slow and gradual policy shift in Europe as a result of this.
- blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
  [flagged]
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
latentcall 2y ago
Ah yes three countries accused of doing really heinous shit do not recognize the legitimacy of the International Criminal Court. How convenient.

What is the point of the ICC? Russia doesn't recognize it, Israel doesn't recognize it and even the United States doesn't recognize it. I am confused at what these warrants even mean.

tuvocoical 2y ago

In this case, to make a political statement against Israel and their leadership. Note that the only member of Hamas indicted, Mohammed Deif, will never see a day in court. As the ICC already knows, he was killed in an airstrike earlier this year.

ktallett 2y ago
Since there has been no proof of his death bar the announcements from Israel, it is sensible to consider him as a wanted man until there is concrete evidence he is dead.
- tuvocoical 2y ago
  https://english.aawsat.com/arab-world/5077358-new-evidence-suggests-death-qassam-brigades-leader https://english.aawsat.com/arab-world/5077358-new-evidence-s... Hamas sources have also confimed this.

DasIch 2y ago

In practice these warrants mean that they cannot travel to any country that does recognize the ICC without being arrested, which means they almost certainly won't.

jcranmer 2y ago
Just like how Putin couldn't travel to, say, South Africa, after a warrant was issued for his arrest. Oh wait, South Africa declined to enforce the ICC arrest warrant in that case. I don't see this meaningfully constraining Netanyahu's foreign travel options.
- runarberg 2y ago
  It would be politically very risky for any European democracy to not enforce this arrest warrant, much more so than for South Africa or Mongolia. Israel is not popular among the public in Europe, and if a government invites him for a political visit, and don’t arrest him, that government will have to pay for that in the next election (and probably sooner, with mass demonstration and public unrest). Now, lets talk about Putin’s visit to South Africa. So Putin was scheduled to visit a BRICS summit in South Africa despite the ICC arrest warrant. South Africa claimed they wouldn’t enforce the arrest warrant. People got very mad. South Africa, in response, declared that Putin would only participate in the summit remotely, where the arrest warrant couldn’t be enforced. Now this was obviously a way to bypass the ICC warrant, and the stunt did not go well in the general public. In the next election the ANC, the governing party at the time, lost their parliamentary majority for the first time since South Africa became a democracy in 1994. Now South Africans had several other reasons to ditch the ANC, but this stunt certainly didn’t help.
  - xenospn 2y ago
    [flagged]
- aguaviva 2y ago
  Oh wait, South Africa is just one country. In a great many other countries, including nearly all Western countries, the warrant is still in effect. And even in the South African case: the government's decision was considered quite tenuous, which is why Putin cancelled his visit, in was was considered to be a major diplomatic setback at the time. So at the end of the day -- the warrant still had significant effect, and fulfilled its purpose.
- dotancohen 2y ago
  Ironic considering that South Africa was the one who pursued this case against Israel.
nickff 2y ago
ICC member Mongolia didn't arrest Putin when he visited. https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/ukraine-situation-icc-pre-trial-chamber-ii-finds-mongolia-failed-cooperate-arrest-and https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/ukraine-situation-icc-pre-trial...
- aguaviva 2y ago
  The fact that it's the only country he's been able to visit since the warrant was issued (aside from North Korea) indicates that, by and large -- it's working as intended.
  - ganeshkrishnan 2y ago
    >The fact that it's the only country he's been able to visit since the warrant was issued Putin has visited around 20 countries after this ICC warrant including UAE, Saudi Arabia, China, Armenia, Vietnam , India (planned), Uzbekistan ... Start here and start counting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_international_presidential_trips_made_by_Vladimir_Putin#2022 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_international_presiden... But I know you wont. Your response will be shifting some goal posts like "these are not real countries because they don't exist in my coloring book"
    - aguaviva 2y ago
      I stand corrected: "The fact that he's only been able to visit a relative handful of countries -- nearly all of which were traditional Cold War allies (and several of these being current or former vassal states) -- indicates that, by and large, the warrant is working as intended." BTW the number is 9, not 20.
      - nickff 2y ago
        Not grandparent, but where are you getting 9? I get 16 from the Wiki: Tajikistan Turkmenistan Iran Uzbekistan Kazakhstan Armenia Kyrgyzstan Belarus China United Arab Emirates Saudi Arabia North Korea Vietnam Azerbaijan Mongolia Turkmenistan

runarberg 2y ago

There have been several pundits with opinion on the matter, you’ll find quite a few in any news source (personally I recommend al-Jazeera). The gist of it is that this will have implication mostly around travels of Israeli officials to Europe. We might also see a slow and gradual policy shift in Europe as a result of this.

blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
[flagged]

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

latentcall 2y ago

Ah yes three countries accused of doing really heinous shit do not recognize the legitimacy of the International Criminal Court. How convenient.