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"The Chamber therefore found reasonable grounds to believe that Mr Netanyahu and Mr Gallant bear criminal responsibility for the war crime of starvation as a me

• guipsp 2y ago
  > Researchers at the Watson Institute for International and Public Affairs at Brown University estimated deaths from starvation to be 62,413 between October 2023 and September 2024.
  • dankai 2y ago
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    • exe34 2y ago
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      • nielsbot 2y ago
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      • CapricornNoble 2y ago
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    • nielsbot 2y ago
      If you’re looking for death estimates there are other sources. The Lancet estimated 160K (at least IIRC) a month or two ago.
      • grumple 2y ago
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      • dlubarov 2y ago
        Not really, most of that number is a prediction of future deaths based on data from other conflicts.
• nick3443 2y ago
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  • setgree 2y ago
    If the US, or any European country, started letting Palestinian refugees in en masse, a lot of them would manage to get there. Egypt’s culpability here is the most salient because they’re physically closest; but I don’t see how that makes the country uniquely culpable for failing to prevent a preventable situation.
    • rtladenk 2y ago
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    • nick3443 2y ago
      Genuine question, how would they go out?
      • setgree 2y ago
        If the US decided to let all Palestinian refugees in -- This obviously wouldn't happen, but if -- we could definitely get boats with capacity for thousands of people a day to a pier that we built [0], get them to somewhere where they could buy flights or have people donate to a fund to pay for them, etc. [0] https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/21/politics/us-gaza-pier-aid-not-delivered/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/21/politics/us-gaza-pier-aid-not...
  • Cyph0n 2y ago
    1. Israel de facto controls the Rafah border. 2. Due to (1), and clear & consistent messaging by Israeli officials on Gaza resettlement as a goal, Egypt understands that “temporary” refugees will be unable to return - i.e., a repeat of 1948 and 1967.
    • nick3443 2y ago
      Both sides are using the border as a bargaining chip. Both sides are complicit.
• zarzavat 2y ago
  Given that the accused is currently in control of the crime scene, it's not surprising that the prosecution chose to prioritise the crimes that are easiest to prove.
  • exe34 2y ago
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    • iwontberude 2y ago
      That’s the whole point of the Geneva convention is that wars cannot be won by any means.
      • deleted 2y ago
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      • exe34 2y ago
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        • ImPostingOnHN 2y ago
          Article 55 of the 4th Geneva convention (to which Israel agreed [0]) obliges occupying powers to provide civilians with food and medical supplies [1]. Note that this does not mean simply allowing food past a border checkpoint, but extends to ensuring that it reaches the civilians in need [2]. 0: https://treaties.un.org/Pages/showActionDetails.aspx?objid=080000028015900e&clang=_en https://treaties.un.org/Pages/showActionDetails.aspx?objid=0... 1: https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/gciv-1949/article-55/commentary/1958 https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/gciv-1949/art... 2: https://www.ft.com/content/40d70b23-a88f-4cab-a730-af2ae3accbcf https://www.ft.com/content/40d70b23-a88f-4cab-a730-af2ae3acc...
          • exe34 2y ago
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• peppers-ghost 2y ago
  "confirmed" data from Gaza at the moment is unreliable. The people who were doing the counting have either been killed or cleansed from the area. The official death toll is still around 40k despite the reality being closer to 100-200k.
  • edanm 2y ago
    If you think the "confirmed" data is unreliable, what makes you think you know the "real" number? How is your number any more reliable?
  • tuvocoical 2y ago
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    • ryuhhnn 2y ago
      source?
      • tuvocoical 2y ago
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        • Qem 2y ago
          That tabletmag analysis is basically statistical malpractice. See https://x.com/AlexKjaerum/status/1766564001977115022 https://x.com/AlexKjaerum/status/1766564001977115022 and https://x.com/nickburbank710/status/1770226449116430688 https://x.com/nickburbank710/status/1770226449116430688
      • AzzieElbab 2y ago
        Do you need one when that ministry reports casualties exactly to single digits within minutes of any incident? Like "567 killed in Israeli attack on Gaza hospital", just look down at your keyboard to see where that number came from.
      • tucnak 2y ago
• bawolff 2y ago
  > Whats perhaps interesting to note is that this charge was made for "just" 41 [1] confirmed starvation deaths among a population of 2,141,643 people [2]. IANAL but this is probably incorrect i think - the starvation charge is related to allegations of intentionally restricting neccesities of life. Whether anyone dies as a result is irrelavent to that charge. The murder charge is for the people who actually allegedly died as a result (of the starvation that is. To be clear, the death has to illegal for it to be the war crime of murder. Normal combat death is not murder).
  • blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
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    • mtalantikite 2y ago
      “No one in the world will allow us to starve 2 million people, even though it might be justified and moral in order to free the hostages.” Bezalel Smotrich https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/08/israel-finance-minister-bezalel-smotrich-gaza-starve-2m-people-comments https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/08/israel...
• deleted 2y ago
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• shihab 2y ago
  This is common and expected. Even when a serial killer suspected of 20 murder is apprehended, arrest is often made based on one or two confirmed cases, more charges are later added as investigation deepens. Also, keep in mind foreign journalists are completely banned by Israel from entering Gaza- complicating evidence gathering.
  • immibis 2y ago
    The Gaza ministry that would have counted the deaths was also destroyed several months ago, which is why news media have been reporting the same death total of 40,000 for several months.
    • noman-land 2y ago
      I was wondering about this. Thanks for the info. Got any links where I can read more?
      • newspaper1 2y ago
        This is a really good independent report on the death toll: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(24)01169-3/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...
        • blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
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        • edanm 2y ago
          It is a report that was correctly widely criticized. Certainly worth reading, but worth being aware of this. (I personally think that estimating that the eventual death toll will be 4x higher than the somewhat-verified death toll that exists today, based on guesses of the impact of the war on the population, is very disingenuous and misleading, and mostly a way to just be able to say much higher numbers.)
• raxxorraxor 2y ago
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  • GordonS 2y ago
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    • blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
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• shkkmo 2y ago
  > but in the context of the victim numbers that most past crimes against humanity have had, it sets a relatively low new bar. Which context is this? If you mean the context of past ICC indictments that isn't true. There are multiple other examples of people indicted for specific acts that resulted in the deaths of a 2 digit numbers of people. The bar for "war crimes" or "crimes against humanity" isn't the number of people you kill. Though in this case, plenty have been killed, this case is about what can be proved conclusively ebough given who it is against.
• generationP 2y ago
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• croes 2y ago
  What’s the threshold for war crimes?
  • bawolff 2y ago
    The crimes have a definition with requisite elements in the rome statue. While many of them do require a certain gravity, viewing international crimes like a more serious version of a normal crime is probably the wrong way of doing it. Some war crimes do not require anyone to die. In other cases thousands could die and it wouldn't be a war crime or crime against humanity because the elements aren't met. In particular, starvation doesn't require anyone to have died, and it covers more things than just food. Keep in mind its a relatively new crime in international law, it was only made illegal in 1977 (for example during ww2, the nuremburg trials explicitly ruled that sieges were legal). As far as i know nobody has ever been persecuted for it, so the case law doesn't exist, so its a bit unknown.
• yyyk 2y ago
  We can compare the rate to countries in more.. stable situations[0]. They'll have a very difficult time getting anywhere with that rate. But we'll see. The world would be better off with all these individuals having no power at all. [0] https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/starvation-deaths-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/starvatio...
• nailer 2y ago
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• megous 2y ago
  Starvation vs starvation to death are different things. War crime of starvation was directed against 2.3 million people without distinction, incl. ~1 million children. I'd say that's bad enough.
  • s5300 2y ago
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• culi 2y ago
  This comment is just pure misinformation. Nobody is claiming only 41 deaths. You're citing an irrelevant Wikipedia page as a source that has a crazy edit history going back and forth between "41+" and "62,413 conservative estimated" deaths