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Ferry service in the Puget Sound (Seattle Area) has suffered due to delays with electric ferries. The state refuses to maintain their existing fleet. Every li

Ferry service in the Puget Sound (Seattle Area) has suffered due to delays with electric ferries. The state refuses to maintain their existing fleet. Every line has frequent delays, and the international route which was suspended for “a couple years” in 2021 is now delayed until 2030. The frustration people have with electric isn’t the technology – it’s the dogmatic commitment to technology that isn’t quite ready, based on false promises of it solving climate change .

dboreham 2y ago
I've traveled on a battery electric ship in Norway, quite a few years ago. It recharged while docked loading passengers using two high voltage high current cables slung from a crane.
- euroderf 2y ago
  This sounds like a great way to keep consumer e-vehicles from hogging charger spots.
seatownferryman 2y ago
[dead]
hwillis 2y ago
It looks like that is a conversion and retrofit of ships that were already unmaintainable: https://washingtonstatestandard.com/briefs/conversion-of-washington-ferry-to-hybrid-electric-power-is-delayed/ https://washingtonstatestandard.com/briefs/conversion-of-was... Modernizing all the control systems etc is the nightmare. The ferries were already electric- all ferries are; they have diesel engines driving generators which drive electric motors. They still have the exact same generators running the same motors. The batteries are installed and ready even though they won't be used until the port is electrified years from now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkgT9Z8Z2RU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkgT9Z8Z2RU
- tonymet 2y ago
  Sure but you have to think of the entire system which includes staff, training , charging infrastructure, power supply, possibly fuel for the charging infrastructure, backup/redundancy, maintenance, parts / distribution etc. An entire infrastructure network that had been operating for decades. Diesel is more than just fuel, it’s an entire system.
  - itake 2y ago
    I also heard the power companies just don't have the extra power to supply the ferries. The terminals need to be redesigned to receive and emit that much juice.
Already__Taken 2y ago
this? https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/electric-conversion-of-wa-ferry-delayed-a-year-and-the-cost-is-rising/ https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/ele... interesting they're struggling to get ship builders to bid. Seems like a lesson learned is to build new boats until service is over capacity before refitting old boats where the unknown unknowns lurk.
laurencerowe 2y ago
Meanwhile Norway has 80 electric commuter ferries in service. https://businessnorway.com/articles/norway-showcases-award-winning-electric-ferry-technology https://businessnorway.com/articles/norway-showcases-award-w...
- nickff 2y ago
  The Norwegian ferries appear to be much smaller than the Washington state ferries. Here is the largest e-ferry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-ferry_Ellen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-ferry_Ellen And a guide to the WA fleet: https://wsdot.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2021-10/WSF-FleetGuide-May2020.pdf https://wsdot.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2021-10/WSF-FleetGu...
  - laurencerowe 2y ago
    > Here is the largest e-ferry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-ferry_Ellen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-ferry_Ellen Norway's largest e-ferry is three times larger. https://www.electrive.com/2021/03/02/worlds-largest-electric-ferry-yet-goes-into-service-in-norway/ https://www.electrive.com/2021/03/02/worlds-largest-electric...
    - nickff 2y ago
      According to your link (and all other articles I found on that vessel), that ferry is capable of operating all-electric, but actually operating as a hybrid.
      - wongarsu 2y ago
        The Seattle ferries GP was talking are also retrofitted to be hybrid-electric, so that does seem very comparable
        nickff 2y ago
        I was initially responding to a post stating that there were many all-electric ferries, and my point was that there were none (operational) of a size comparable to WA state ferries. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42197763 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42197763 There are many large hybrid vessels; notably, this has been common for submarines for a very long time. The largest currently operational diesel-electric (hybrid) submarine seems to be the Chinese Qing-class, of ~3800 tons surfaced displacement.
Gibbon1 2y ago
The frustration should be that in the US management is functionally incompetent. Proposal: If we do it this way we won't have to spend as much money. Counter: That's really hinky and it probably will blow up in our face. Proposal: Yes but you can't prove it will. So it's what we're going to do. Later: Blows up and goes over budget and takes two to three times longer.
- shermantanktop 2y ago
  you forgot the part where "Proposal" has been promoted twice based on a hurried launch and only "Counter" is left to take the blame for the messups.
- ajford 2y ago
  It also doesn't help that the bid/contract process is skewed to select the lowest bidder. You can always forget to add some margin here or there, or fail to plan for problems that might pop up. It's easy to game the system because sunk costs make it nearly impossible to switch once you've started.
Epa095 2y ago
Technology won't become ready without users unfortunately.
Panzer04 2y ago
I don't know what you mean by dogmatic. Alternatives to electric are still the primary workhorses in most industries, but falling prices for batteries mean they are rapidly becoming more competitive. My experience is that people don't have a good grasp of how effective electric is, and think it's somehow worse than the alternatives and winning via subsidies, which is not really the case today. Likewise for things like solar. I imagine many businesses are hoping to put off their next replacement cycles for more effective, cheaper technology rather than incur big Capex expenses on soon to be obsolete and more expensive technologies.
- tonymet 2y ago
  dogmatic in this case refers to tolerating critical service disruptions despite strong signal that electric is not yet ready, when you could easily continue service with diesel, the mature technology.
tonymet 2y ago
Hackernews needs a better way to highlight stimulating comments. This one generated a healthy discussion, still 0 points. I advocated for a controversial ranking before and it’s still relevant.

dboreham 2y ago

I've traveled on a battery electric ship in Norway, quite a few years ago. It recharged while docked loading passengers using two high voltage high current cables slung from a crane.

euroderf 2y ago
This sounds like a great way to keep consumer e-vehicles from hogging charger spots.

seatownferryman 2y ago

[dead]

hwillis 2y ago

It looks like that is a conversion and retrofit of ships that were already unmaintainable: https://washingtonstatestandard.com/briefs/conversion-of-washington-ferry-to-hybrid-electric-power-is-delayed/ https://washingtonstatestandard.com/briefs/conversion-of-was... Modernizing all the control systems etc is the nightmare. The ferries were already electric- all ferries are; they have diesel engines driving generators which drive electric motors. They still have the exact same generators running the same motors. The batteries are installed and ready even though they won't be used until the port is electrified years from now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkgT9Z8Z2RU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkgT9Z8Z2RU

tonymet 2y ago
Sure but you have to think of the entire system which includes staff, training , charging infrastructure, power supply, possibly fuel for the charging infrastructure, backup/redundancy, maintenance, parts / distribution etc. An entire infrastructure network that had been operating for decades. Diesel is more than just fuel, it’s an entire system.
- itake 2y ago
  I also heard the power companies just don't have the extra power to supply the ferries. The terminals need to be redesigned to receive and emit that much juice.

Already__Taken 2y ago

this? https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/electric-conversion-of-wa-ferry-delayed-a-year-and-the-cost-is-rising/ https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/ele... interesting they're struggling to get ship builders to bid. Seems like a lesson learned is to build new boats until service is over capacity before refitting old boats where the unknown unknowns lurk.

laurencerowe 2y ago

Meanwhile Norway has 80 electric commuter ferries in service. https://businessnorway.com/articles/norway-showcases-award-winning-electric-ferry-technology https://businessnorway.com/articles/norway-showcases-award-w...

nickff 2y ago
The Norwegian ferries appear to be much smaller than the Washington state ferries. Here is the largest e-ferry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-ferry_Ellen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-ferry_Ellen And a guide to the WA fleet: https://wsdot.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2021-10/WSF-FleetGuide-May2020.pdf https://wsdot.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2021-10/WSF-FleetGu...
- laurencerowe 2y ago
  > Here is the largest e-ferry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-ferry_Ellen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-ferry_Ellen Norway's largest e-ferry is three times larger. https://www.electrive.com/2021/03/02/worlds-largest-electric-ferry-yet-goes-into-service-in-norway/ https://www.electrive.com/2021/03/02/worlds-largest-electric...
  - nickff 2y ago
    According to your link (and all other articles I found on that vessel), that ferry is capable of operating all-electric, but actually operating as a hybrid.
    - wongarsu 2y ago
      The Seattle ferries GP was talking are also retrofitted to be hybrid-electric, so that does seem very comparable
      - nickff 2y ago
        I was initially responding to a post stating that there were many all-electric ferries, and my point was that there were none (operational) of a size comparable to WA state ferries. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42197763 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42197763 There are many large hybrid vessels; notably, this has been common for submarines for a very long time. The largest currently operational diesel-electric (hybrid) submarine seems to be the Chinese Qing-class, of ~3800 tons surfaced displacement.

Gibbon1 2y ago

The frustration should be that in the US management is functionally incompetent. Proposal: If we do it this way we won't have to spend as much money. Counter: That's really hinky and it probably will blow up in our face. Proposal: Yes but you can't prove it will. So it's what we're going to do. Later: Blows up and goes over budget and takes two to three times longer.

shermantanktop 2y ago
you forgot the part where "Proposal" has been promoted twice based on a hurried launch and only "Counter" is left to take the blame for the messups.
ajford 2y ago
It also doesn't help that the bid/contract process is skewed to select the lowest bidder. You can always forget to add some margin here or there, or fail to plan for problems that might pop up. It's easy to game the system because sunk costs make it nearly impossible to switch once you've started.

Epa095 2y ago

Technology won't become ready without users unfortunately.

Panzer04 2y ago

I don't know what you mean by dogmatic. Alternatives to electric are still the primary workhorses in most industries, but falling prices for batteries mean they are rapidly becoming more competitive. My experience is that people don't have a good grasp of how effective electric is, and think it's somehow worse than the alternatives and winning via subsidies, which is not really the case today. Likewise for things like solar. I imagine many businesses are hoping to put off their next replacement cycles for more effective, cheaper technology rather than incur big Capex expenses on soon to be obsolete and more expensive technologies.

tonymet 2y ago
dogmatic in this case refers to tolerating critical service disruptions despite strong signal that electric is not yet ready, when you could easily continue service with diesel, the mature technology.

tonymet 2y ago

Hackernews needs a better way to highlight stimulating comments. This one generated a healthy discussion, still 0 points. I advocated for a controversial ranking before and it’s still relevant.