4 ms·

I think classifying western aid to Ukraine as tax transfer to the military industrial complex is just incorrect. Because a lot of it does/did NOT need to be dir

I think classifying western aid to Ukraine as tax transfer to the military industrial complex is just incorrect. Because a lot of it does/did NOT need to be directly replenished for the donors-- instead the donations was more like getting rid of older stockpiles, and for some systems moving the modernization schedule up. And I think the attitude "its pointless to try and keep helping against the Russians, people have suffered from them for so long anyway" is completeley beside the point (and dangerous!)-- the main gain from helping the Ukraine in my view is discouraging the kind of neo-imperialistm that led to this attack, and stopping the support just sends a signal to ambitious tyrants all over the world that you don't really care about them plundering their weaker neighbors (and with having the biggest military comes some kind of obligation in this regard in my view). I also think that you are patronizing the Ukrainians themselves in the worst way-- if anyone should get to decide how long it is worth it to fight for their country, it should be them.

Dalewyn 2y ago
>instead the donations was more like getting rid of older stockpiles, and for some systems moving the modernization schedule up. That is precisely the benefitting of the military industrial complex that I am fed up with. >"its pointless to try and keep helping against the Russians, people have suffered from them for so long anyway" That is not what I'm angry about. I am angry that this war is dragging on far longer than there is any reasonable reason to be. If we hadn't trickled in support Ukraine would have lost already, if we had placed our full weight behind Ukraine they would have won already; either way the war would have ended long ago. With the question of warmongering settled at this point (it's okay to warmonger, whether any of us like it or not), the only thing I care about is people not dying. I sincerely don't care how the war ends anymore, all I care about at this point is that it stops ASAP, that people stop dying. >if anyone should get to decide how long it is worth it to fight for their country, it should be them. If they want to continue fighting that's totally within their right, but I as an American taxpayer am not obliged to foot their bill much less in the manner we've been doing it.
- myrmidon 2y ago
  > That is precisely the benefitting of the military industrial complex that I am fed up with. This whole position just strikes me as misguided, because the numbers simply dont work. At all. Because if what you mainly care about is reducing US taxes flowing into weapon manufacturers, then the Ukraine is such a marginal portion that it basically does not matter at all: If you said "lets reduce US spending on military to what all the rest of NATO together spends" (mind you, that is still the largest military budget in the world!), then that change alone would save in a single year over 4 (total!) Ukraine aid programs (and this is including all financial and humanitarian aid so far). If you look at the stock price for major US arms manufacturers (RTX, LMT, NOC-- picked for being large and majority non-civilian revenue), then the whole Ukraine thing is basically not even a blip-- you would not even be able to tell (contrast the whole bitcoin/AI boom which is clearly visible in Nvidia price). > With the question of warmongering settled at this point I strongly disagree that this question is settled with a yes. I do absolutely agree with you that the answer from the US and especially its european allies should have been more decisive and unambiguous. In the end, what the Ukraine war did and still does is establish a price on blatant imperialism. That price needs to be as high as possible to discourage and prevent repetitions as much as possible. I would argue that this was a success in that regard already, but a small one, especially regarding the EU. Cutting further support would undermine and weaken this even more. I'd also like to challenge your position on wanting to force an end to avoid further loss of life: How can you be confident that an (immediate) conclusion in Russians favor by cutting Ukraine military, humanitarian and financial aid (possibly also from allies) would actually be a net benefit in lives saved? If you just look at the first and second Chechen war and the 8 years of insurgency directly after, what would make you confident that the exact same atrocities would not repeat at 20 times the scale? To me personally, cutting support for the Ukraine when ones country is founded on principles of self-determination, freedom and democracy is peak hypocrisy. Sources: https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/RTX https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/RTX https://de.finance.yahoo.com/quote/LMT https://de.finance.yahoo.com/quote/LMT https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/NOC/ https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/NOC/ Ukraine aid volume: https://www.cfr.org/article/how-much-us-aid-going-ukraine https://www.cfr.org/article/how-much-us-aid-going-ukraine
- mrguyorama 2y ago
tmiku 2y ago
> if anyone should get to decide how long it is worth it to fight for their country, it should be them. Looks like the popular sentiment over there is shifting towards a negotiated peace with territorial concessions. https://www.newsweek.com/ukrainians-changing-their-minds-war-1988220 https://www.newsweek.com/ukrainians-changing-their-minds-war...
- n4r9 2y ago
  Are there other less partisan sources reporting this? From what I understand, Newsweek has been an alt-right mouthpiece since 2022.
  - Dalewyn 2y ago
    The linked article is just repeating numbers and findings from Gallup: https://news.gallup.com/poll/653495/half-ukrainians-quick-negotiated-end-war.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/653495/half-ukrainians-quick-ne...
    - n4r9 2y ago
      Thanks! The article does indeed seem impartial, at least up until the Trump parts. It's not surprising. My own resolve would probably wane sooner than most Ukrainians. It cannot be easy to live in fear of loved ones dying at any time.
    - myrmidon 2y ago
      Thanks for the link! Was really suprised to see EU being favored as brokers over the US. Makes me kinda curious if there is still significant blame/resentment regarding the Budapest Memorandum (against the US specifically)...
  - tmiku 2y ago
    Yeesh, I wasn't aware that that happened at Newsweek. The Gallup link in the sibling comment is the best source, I had seen those results in a couple different places so I just grabbed one from the top of Google (wrongly assuming that remembering Newsweek being on my parents' coffee table 15 years ago is sufficient vetting). Thanks for keeping me honest!

Dalewyn 2y ago

>instead the donations was more like getting rid of older stockpiles, and for some systems moving the modernization schedule up. That is precisely the benefitting of the military industrial complex that I am fed up with. >"its pointless to try and keep helping against the Russians, people have suffered from them for so long anyway" That is not what I'm angry about. I am angry that this war is dragging on far longer than there is any reasonable reason to be. If we hadn't trickled in support Ukraine would have lost already, if we had placed our full weight behind Ukraine they would have won already; either way the war would have ended long ago. With the question of warmongering settled at this point (it's okay to warmonger, whether any of us like it or not), the only thing I care about is people not dying. I sincerely don't care how the war ends anymore, all I care about at this point is that it stops ASAP, that people stop dying. >if anyone should get to decide how long it is worth it to fight for their country, it should be them. If they want to continue fighting that's totally within their right, but I as an American taxpayer am not obliged to foot their bill much less in the manner we've been doing it.

myrmidon 2y ago
> That is precisely the benefitting of the military industrial complex that I am fed up with. This whole position just strikes me as misguided, because the numbers simply dont work. At all. Because if what you mainly care about is reducing US taxes flowing into weapon manufacturers, then the Ukraine is such a marginal portion that it basically does not matter at all: If you said "lets reduce US spending on military to what all the rest of NATO together spends" (mind you, that is still the largest military budget in the world!), then that change alone would save in a single year over 4 (total!) Ukraine aid programs (and this is including all financial and humanitarian aid so far). If you look at the stock price for major US arms manufacturers (RTX, LMT, NOC-- picked for being large and majority non-civilian revenue), then the whole Ukraine thing is basically not even a blip-- you would not even be able to tell (contrast the whole bitcoin/AI boom which is clearly visible in Nvidia price). > With the question of warmongering settled at this point I strongly disagree that this question is settled with a yes. I do absolutely agree with you that the answer from the US and especially its european allies should have been more decisive and unambiguous. In the end, what the Ukraine war did and still does is establish a price on blatant imperialism. That price needs to be as high as possible to discourage and prevent repetitions as much as possible. I would argue that this was a success in that regard already, but a small one, especially regarding the EU. Cutting further support would undermine and weaken this even more. I'd also like to challenge your position on wanting to force an end to avoid further loss of life: How can you be confident that an (immediate) conclusion in Russians favor by cutting Ukraine military, humanitarian and financial aid (possibly also from allies) would actually be a net benefit in lives saved? If you just look at the first and second Chechen war and the 8 years of insurgency directly after, what would make you confident that the exact same atrocities would not repeat at 20 times the scale? To me personally, cutting support for the Ukraine when ones country is founded on principles of self-determination, freedom and democracy is peak hypocrisy. Sources: https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/RTX https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/RTX https://de.finance.yahoo.com/quote/LMT https://de.finance.yahoo.com/quote/LMT https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/NOC/ https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/NOC/ Ukraine aid volume: https://www.cfr.org/article/how-much-us-aid-going-ukraine https://www.cfr.org/article/how-much-us-aid-going-ukraine
mrguyorama 2y ago

tmiku 2y ago

> if anyone should get to decide how long it is worth it to fight for their country, it should be them. Looks like the popular sentiment over there is shifting towards a negotiated peace with territorial concessions. https://www.newsweek.com/ukrainians-changing-their-minds-war-1988220 https://www.newsweek.com/ukrainians-changing-their-minds-war...

n4r9 2y ago
Are there other less partisan sources reporting this? From what I understand, Newsweek has been an alt-right mouthpiece since 2022.
- Dalewyn 2y ago
  The linked article is just repeating numbers and findings from Gallup: https://news.gallup.com/poll/653495/half-ukrainians-quick-negotiated-end-war.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/653495/half-ukrainians-quick-ne...
  - n4r9 2y ago
    Thanks! The article does indeed seem impartial, at least up until the Trump parts. It's not surprising. My own resolve would probably wane sooner than most Ukrainians. It cannot be easy to live in fear of loved ones dying at any time.
  - myrmidon 2y ago
    Thanks for the link! Was really suprised to see EU being favored as brokers over the US. Makes me kinda curious if there is still significant blame/resentment regarding the Budapest Memorandum (against the US specifically)...
- tmiku 2y ago
  Yeesh, I wasn't aware that that happened at Newsweek. The Gallup link in the sibling comment is the best source, I had seen those results in a couple different places so I just grabbed one from the top of Google (wrongly assuming that remembering Newsweek being on my parents' coffee table 15 years ago is sufficient vetting). Thanks for keeping me honest!