5 ms·

It is really a shame, that the west cannot build cheap infrastructure anymore.

belorn 2y ago
Given the high amount of human trafficking that is involved in practically all construction of infrastructure, it is kind of strange how expensive it really is. It seems less and less of the budget is spent on actually construction.
- Retric 2y ago
  It’s more that construction is one of the few things that hasn’t benefited significantly from information technology so it looks relatively more expensive. Farming, retail, energy, manufacturing, etc all got vastly more efficient but land, education, and construction didn’t so what looks like huge price increases is largely inflation. It’s the same reason artisanal goods seem so expensive when that’s how everything used to be made.
  - lo_zamoyski 2y ago
    Look at earnings vs. housing costs, controlling for location and size. That ratio has not remained fixed.
    - Retric 2y ago
      There’s a lot of ways to slice these numbers. A 1,500 square foot house in rural Tennessee has seen a very different shift in prices over the last 50 or 100 years vs a 1,500 square foot apartment in Manhattan over that same time periods. Similarly, apples to apples job comparisons are difficult. Many modern jobs are quite different. An Amazon warehouse worker works a lot harder than would be typical for a random warehouse worker in 2000.
HPsquared 2y ago
Or houses, or cars, or just about anything really.
sofixa 2y ago
By the west I presume you mean US+Canada+UK. Maybe you're including Australia and New Zealand? France, Germany, Spain, Italy, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, etc. do it just fine. They have good various combinations of urban and interurban public transit which was expanded in the past 10-20 years. (be it high speed rail or new subway lines or big bridges).
TheOtherHobbes 2y ago
The UK did just fine with HS1 - built under budget - and the Elizabeth Line, which was over and late but has been a huge commercial and popular success. HS2 is just a bad answer to the problems its trying to address.
- growse 2y ago
  What's a better answer to freeing up WCML capacity?
  - DrBazza 2y ago
    Not telling potential contract bidders what the value of each contract is and then being surprised when they bid at that value. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/hs2-rishi-sunak-tory-conference-b2422922.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/hs2-rishi-sun... https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/07/hs2-the-zombie-train-that-refuses-to-die https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/07/hs2-the-zomb... > Mr Holden also said HS1 was successful because the true budget was known to just “a handful of people”, while HS2 contractors inflated their prices once they saw the latter project’s true budget.
    - growse 2y ago
      You seem to be answering a different question.

Given the high amount of human trafficking that is involved in practically all construction of infrastructure, it is kind of strange how expensive it really is. It seems less and less of the budget is spent on actually construction.

Retric 2y ago
It’s more that construction is one of the few things that hasn’t benefited significantly from information technology so it looks relatively more expensive. Farming, retail, energy, manufacturing, etc all got vastly more efficient but land, education, and construction didn’t so what looks like huge price increases is largely inflation. It’s the same reason artisanal goods seem so expensive when that’s how everything used to be made.
- lo_zamoyski 2y ago
  Look at earnings vs. housing costs, controlling for location and size. That ratio has not remained fixed.
  - Retric 2y ago
    There’s a lot of ways to slice these numbers. A 1,500 square foot house in rural Tennessee has seen a very different shift in prices over the last 50 or 100 years vs a 1,500 square foot apartment in Manhattan over that same time periods. Similarly, apples to apples job comparisons are difficult. Many modern jobs are quite different. An Amazon warehouse worker works a lot harder than would be typical for a random warehouse worker in 2000.

HPsquared 2y ago

Or houses, or cars, or just about anything really.

sofixa 2y ago

By the west I presume you mean US+Canada+UK. Maybe you're including Australia and New Zealand? France, Germany, Spain, Italy, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, etc. do it just fine. They have good various combinations of urban and interurban public transit which was expanded in the past 10-20 years. (be it high speed rail or new subway lines or big bridges).

TheOtherHobbes 2y ago

The UK did just fine with HS1 - built under budget - and the Elizabeth Line, which was over and late but has been a huge commercial and popular success. HS2 is just a bad answer to the problems its trying to address.

growse 2y ago
What's a better answer to freeing up WCML capacity?
- DrBazza 2y ago
  Not telling potential contract bidders what the value of each contract is and then being surprised when they bid at that value. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/hs2-rishi-sunak-tory-conference-b2422922.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/hs2-rishi-sun... https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/07/hs2-the-zombie-train-that-refuses-to-die https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/07/hs2-the-zomb... > Mr Holden also said HS1 was successful because the true budget was known to just “a handful of people”, while HS2 contractors inflated their prices once they saw the latter project’s true budget.
  - growse 2y ago
    You seem to be answering a different question.