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> First, libertarians can't be taken seriously. Roads and courts are like kryptonite to libertarianism. This is a very sweeping statement about a political ide

> First, libertarians can't be taken seriously. Roads and courts are like kryptonite to libertarianism. This is a very sweeping statement about a political ideology that varies as much as "liberal" and "conservative" do. Believing that roads and courts shouldn't exist isn't baked in to some official libertarian Bible—all libertarianism necessarily signifies is that someone believes that both personal and financial freedoms should be given roughly equal consideration, where a liberal might prioritize personal freedom and a conservative might prioritize financial freedom. Where someone falls on the spectrum of how much government involvement is appropriate in either type of freedom can vary quite a bit. (The average libertarian who runs for office as a Libertarian does seem to be extreme in the way that you describe, but I think that's a side effect of our FPTP voting system—only a fanatic would truly believe that it's better to run on their own than get behind the least-objectionable candidate—than it is a result of libertarianism as a philosophy.)

jmyeet 2y ago
I'm sorry but libertarianism is deeply unserious. Part of the problem here is that so many Americans (in particular) simply haven't done the reading. Take, for example, your labels of "liberal" and "conservative". Classical liberalism is a hyper-individualistic philosophy that enshrines "private property" as a basic right. Really nobody is a classic liberal anymore. They're neoliberals. What's a neoliberal? Someone who deeply believes in deregulation and capitalism as well as being a liberal. In that sense, anyone labelled "liberal" or "conservative" is a (neo)liberal.. There are only aesthetic differences around social issues. There is no sunshine between the foreign policy of the two major parties in the US, for example. Libertarianism is really just a flavor of neoliberalism where deregulation is taken to the extreme yet somehow it's believed that free markets can still exist. But start probing the details: what do you do if you pay someone to build a house for you and they just don't? Or they do and it collapses 3 months later? Or what if someone just comes along and steals your stuff? "Free markets" are largely an oxymoron anyway but such as they cann exist, they require a strong government to exist. Building codes are necessary. Courts to enforce contracts are necessary. The ability to enforce court rulings is necessary. People are often attracted to the idea of libertarianism through a misguided desire for "freedom". This is a consequence of not being paid fairly for one's labor. In other words, you're being exploited. Well, if you're being exploited in the current system, what makes you think you won't be exploited in a system without some government-provided safeguards?
- tivert 2y ago
  > Libertarianism is really just a flavor of neoliberalism where deregulation is taken to the extreme yet somehow it's believed that free markets can still exist. But start probing the details: what do you do if you pay someone to build a house for you and they just don't? Or they do and it collapses 3 months later? Or what if someone just comes along and steals your stuff? I'm not a fan of libertarianism, but I feel you're talking about the most extreme version: anarchocapitalism. Anarchocapitalism is a deeply unserious idea, because it starts with the contradictory assumption that am extremely unstable social system would in fact be stable, then proceeds to spend books worth of text reasoning about how that thing would work if it were stable. The reality is anarchocapitalism, if ever instantiated, would immediately decay into something else entirely (probably something like feudalism).
  - munksbeer 2y ago
    No, I think you're not being fair to the GP by trying to claim libertarian can be more moderate. Technically true, but not relevant. Ever heard the saying "All tax is theft"? I'm sure, like me, you've heard it all the time, because that is by far the most common form of libertarianism you will encounter. Take a look here for example: https://www.lp.org/issues/taxes/ https://www.lp.org/issues/taxes/

jmyeet 2y ago

I'm sorry but libertarianism is deeply unserious. Part of the problem here is that so many Americans (in particular) simply haven't done the reading. Take, for example, your labels of "liberal" and "conservative". Classical liberalism is a hyper-individualistic philosophy that enshrines "private property" as a basic right. Really nobody is a classic liberal anymore. They're neoliberals. What's a neoliberal? Someone who deeply believes in deregulation and capitalism as well as being a liberal. In that sense, anyone labelled "liberal" or "conservative" is a (neo)liberal.. There are only aesthetic differences around social issues. There is no sunshine between the foreign policy of the two major parties in the US, for example. Libertarianism is really just a flavor of neoliberalism where deregulation is taken to the extreme yet somehow it's believed that free markets can still exist. But start probing the details: what do you do if you pay someone to build a house for you and they just don't? Or they do and it collapses 3 months later? Or what if someone just comes along and steals your stuff? "Free markets" are largely an oxymoron anyway but such as they cann exist, they require a strong government to exist. Building codes are necessary. Courts to enforce contracts are necessary. The ability to enforce court rulings is necessary. People are often attracted to the idea of libertarianism through a misguided desire for "freedom". This is a consequence of not being paid fairly for one's labor. In other words, you're being exploited. Well, if you're being exploited in the current system, what makes you think you won't be exploited in a system without some government-provided safeguards?

tivert 2y ago
> Libertarianism is really just a flavor of neoliberalism where deregulation is taken to the extreme yet somehow it's believed that free markets can still exist. But start probing the details: what do you do if you pay someone to build a house for you and they just don't? Or they do and it collapses 3 months later? Or what if someone just comes along and steals your stuff? I'm not a fan of libertarianism, but I feel you're talking about the most extreme version: anarchocapitalism. Anarchocapitalism is a deeply unserious idea, because it starts with the contradictory assumption that am extremely unstable social system would in fact be stable, then proceeds to spend books worth of text reasoning about how that thing would work if it were stable. The reality is anarchocapitalism, if ever instantiated, would immediately decay into something else entirely (probably something like feudalism).
- munksbeer 2y ago
  No, I think you're not being fair to the GP by trying to claim libertarian can be more moderate. Technically true, but not relevant. Ever heard the saying "All tax is theft"? I'm sure, like me, you've heard it all the time, because that is by far the most common form of libertarianism you will encounter. Take a look here for example: https://www.lp.org/issues/taxes/ https://www.lp.org/issues/taxes/