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Blender, in my view, is one of the best arguments to develop native desktop applications over web view wrappers like Electron. Everything is responsive and inst

Blender, in my view, is one of the best arguments to develop native desktop applications over web view wrappers like Electron. Everything is responsive and instant, you can open new 3D view windows by just sliding them open at 60 frames a second, performance is stable even with multiple windows open and the download size is a reasonable 334MB.

cultofmetatron 2y ago
> and the download size is a reasonable 334MB. I remember when it was 2 MB!!
- ideasman42 2y ago
  I remember downloading it from my library on a floppy disk (hoping the librarian wouldn't hear it the floppy drive working - since it wasn't allowed). :) It's in fact still quite small if additional 3rd party libraries are disabled. It's possible to make a much smaller download that removes OpenCollada, FFMPEG, OpenEXR, OpenImageDenoise, OpenVDB ... etc. However it's a hassle to distribute a second version at a time when the current size is manageable for most users.
flohofwoe 2y ago
It notably doesn't use any 'standard' UI framework though, which is frowned upon by some people just as much as using Electron (but for different reasons - usually missing accessibility features and not looking consistent with 'system applications').
- jbggs 2y ago
  I think that's the smoking gun for why most UIs are terrible. it is definitely cheaper to use a framework, but maybe, sometimes, doing something yourself (for 25+) years is worth it
- InDubioProRubio 2y ago
  Should be separated out and reused by many Electron apps in my opinion
  - flohofwoe 2y ago
    To bear clear, Blender is not an Electron app (reading my comment again it could be read as such I guess). Blender is a native application sitting directly on the operating system's 3D API and window system (with the UI being rendered through the 3D API, not through operating system widgets).
    - exe34 2y ago
      it could probably work well under webgl...
      - swiftcoder 2y ago
        The WebGL API is sadly two decades behind state-of-the-art for modern rendering, and even the will-be-ready-for-adoption-any-day-now WebGPU spec is ~5 years behind. Between that and the overhead of running the whole thing in WASM+Javascript, I don't think we'll see a pro-level DCC tool running on the web anytime soon.
  - KeplerBoy 2y ago
    It's not html/css/js though.
- bzzzt 2y ago
  As if there's still a consistent option. It doesn't matter if you use Microsoft, Apple or an OSS desktop: all offer multiple UI toolkit options with varying amounts of consistency, maturity and hardware support.
geenat 2y ago
It's not a web view
- flohofwoe 2y ago
  That's what the parent is saying, I also had to read twice though ;)
lukan 2y ago
Electron apps can be very responsive as well. But a 3D designer is definitely in the category of needing all the performance you can get. So yes, native makes sense here.
aurareturn 2y ago
>Blender, in my view, is one of the best arguments to develop native desktop applications over web view wrappers like Electron. Different class of products. For Electron apps, often it's the choice of having a desktop app or not having one at all.
- McDyver 2y ago
  In my opinion, the actual problem is the focus on making everything web first. > For Electron apps, often it's the choice of having a desktop app or not having one at all. Maybe it would be better to have none at all. Having an electron app is an excuse to say "we already have a desktop app, so we won't make a native one".
  - aurareturn 2y ago
    In my opinion, the actual problem is the focus on making everything web first. I don't think this is a problem. Many class of products require a web version over a desktop one. The desktop one is a very nice bonus.
  - flohofwoe 2y ago
    The reason why Electron has won is because native platforms couldn't be arsed to agree on a standardized native UI framework integrated into the platforms (and not just Microsoft, Apple and Google (via Android), but also 'Linux on the desktop' which is still the same fragmented mess as it ever was (arguably worse after Wayland will replace X11 any moment now). Electron's success is strictly to blame on the desktop platform owners/maintainers dropping the ball, consistently and repeatedly for the last 3 decades (Microsoft's UI framework 'evolution' is especially hilarious, who in their right mind would write an application against a widget library that's going to be deprecated in 3 years).
- rounce 2y ago
  I wonder if this relationship will invert as wasm and web guy and their tooling matures, to the point where these types of applications where drawing performance is a must are being targeted desktop first and then thrown through a OSFA wasmification step to run on the web.
cageface 2y ago
Of course there are still categories of app that should be native. That doesn’t mean there isn’t a place for things like Tauri and Electron too.
raincole 2y ago
3D DCCs are very different from todo lists.
demarq 2y ago
Please check out plasticity, this “electron bad” argument is pretty outdated and never evidenced. There is absolutely nothing that says browsers can’t do 60fps with multiple 3d views.
- flohofwoe 2y ago
  There definitely are a couple of annoying details. For instance visual mouse lag (when dragging items around) in WebGL and WebGPU can be higher than in a well written native application (just one or two additional frames of latency make a huge difference). Then there's WebGL2 being stuck on a GPU feature set from ca 2 decades ago, and WebGPU starting at a feature set from about a decade ago (and not being quite ready yet anyway). Then there's also annoying differences between browsers when capturing the mouse - which is needed for camera controls (all browsers show some sort of popup while the mouse is captured, with Safari even shifting the canvas around). TL;DR: it's possible in theory, but can be very annoying when actually trying to do it, mostly because most web APIs are badly designed (WebGL2 and WebGPU are notable exceptions, but they still lag far behind native 3D APIs).
- divan 2y ago
  "electron bad" argument will always be valid. I wish people could "see" what actually happens in the app they running. Electron is essentially a hidden browser that runs a web app. It doesn't matter if it can or can not do 60fps. Installing yet another copy of the browser just to run that small web app is just wrong.
  - aniviacat 2y ago
    I assume most people who dislike Electron dislike Tauri too, even though it doesn't need to ship a browser.
lucsky 2y ago
How in the everlasting love of rollerblading Jesus is a post about a new version of Blender devolving into a squillionth bullshit nonsensical rant about how boo-fucking-whoo Electron is so bad. My mind is blown. You guys are absolutely exhausting.

cultofmetatron 2y ago

> and the download size is a reasonable 334MB. I remember when it was 2 MB!!

ideasman42 2y ago
I remember downloading it from my library on a floppy disk (hoping the librarian wouldn't hear it the floppy drive working - since it wasn't allowed). :) It's in fact still quite small if additional 3rd party libraries are disabled. It's possible to make a much smaller download that removes OpenCollada, FFMPEG, OpenEXR, OpenImageDenoise, OpenVDB ... etc. However it's a hassle to distribute a second version at a time when the current size is manageable for most users.

flohofwoe 2y ago

It notably doesn't use any 'standard' UI framework though, which is frowned upon by some people just as much as using Electron (but for different reasons - usually missing accessibility features and not looking consistent with 'system applications').

jbggs 2y ago
I think that's the smoking gun for why most UIs are terrible. it is definitely cheaper to use a framework, but maybe, sometimes, doing something yourself (for 25+) years is worth it
InDubioProRubio 2y ago
Should be separated out and reused by many Electron apps in my opinion
- flohofwoe 2y ago
  To bear clear, Blender is not an Electron app (reading my comment again it could be read as such I guess). Blender is a native application sitting directly on the operating system's 3D API and window system (with the UI being rendered through the 3D API, not through operating system widgets).
  - exe34 2y ago
    it could probably work well under webgl...
    - swiftcoder 2y ago
      The WebGL API is sadly two decades behind state-of-the-art for modern rendering, and even the will-be-ready-for-adoption-any-day-now WebGPU spec is ~5 years behind. Between that and the overhead of running the whole thing in WASM+Javascript, I don't think we'll see a pro-level DCC tool running on the web anytime soon.
- KeplerBoy 2y ago
  It's not html/css/js though.
bzzzt 2y ago
As if there's still a consistent option. It doesn't matter if you use Microsoft, Apple or an OSS desktop: all offer multiple UI toolkit options with varying amounts of consistency, maturity and hardware support.

geenat 2y ago

It's not a web view

flohofwoe 2y ago
That's what the parent is saying, I also had to read twice though ;)

lukan 2y ago

Electron apps can be very responsive as well. But a 3D designer is definitely in the category of needing all the performance you can get. So yes, native makes sense here.

aurareturn 2y ago

>Blender, in my view, is one of the best arguments to develop native desktop applications over web view wrappers like Electron. Different class of products. For Electron apps, often it's the choice of having a desktop app or not having one at all.

McDyver 2y ago
In my opinion, the actual problem is the focus on making everything web first. > For Electron apps, often it's the choice of having a desktop app or not having one at all. Maybe it would be better to have none at all. Having an electron app is an excuse to say "we already have a desktop app, so we won't make a native one".
- aurareturn 2y ago
  In my opinion, the actual problem is the focus on making everything web first. I don't think this is a problem. Many class of products require a web version over a desktop one. The desktop one is a very nice bonus.
- flohofwoe 2y ago
  The reason why Electron has won is because native platforms couldn't be arsed to agree on a standardized native UI framework integrated into the platforms (and not just Microsoft, Apple and Google (via Android), but also 'Linux on the desktop' which is still the same fragmented mess as it ever was (arguably worse after Wayland will replace X11 any moment now). Electron's success is strictly to blame on the desktop platform owners/maintainers dropping the ball, consistently and repeatedly for the last 3 decades (Microsoft's UI framework 'evolution' is especially hilarious, who in their right mind would write an application against a widget library that's going to be deprecated in 3 years).
rounce 2y ago
I wonder if this relationship will invert as wasm and web guy and their tooling matures, to the point where these types of applications where drawing performance is a must are being targeted desktop first and then thrown through a OSFA wasmification step to run on the web.

cageface 2y ago

Of course there are still categories of app that should be native. That doesn’t mean there isn’t a place for things like Tauri and Electron too.

raincole 2y ago

3D DCCs are very different from todo lists.

demarq 2y ago

Please check out plasticity, this “electron bad” argument is pretty outdated and never evidenced. There is absolutely nothing that says browsers can’t do 60fps with multiple 3d views.

flohofwoe 2y ago
There definitely are a couple of annoying details. For instance visual mouse lag (when dragging items around) in WebGL and WebGPU can be higher than in a well written native application (just one or two additional frames of latency make a huge difference). Then there's WebGL2 being stuck on a GPU feature set from ca 2 decades ago, and WebGPU starting at a feature set from about a decade ago (and not being quite ready yet anyway). Then there's also annoying differences between browsers when capturing the mouse - which is needed for camera controls (all browsers show some sort of popup while the mouse is captured, with Safari even shifting the canvas around). TL;DR: it's possible in theory, but can be very annoying when actually trying to do it, mostly because most web APIs are badly designed (WebGL2 and WebGPU are notable exceptions, but they still lag far behind native 3D APIs).
divan 2y ago
"electron bad" argument will always be valid. I wish people could "see" what actually happens in the app they running. Electron is essentially a hidden browser that runs a web app. It doesn't matter if it can or can not do 60fps. Installing yet another copy of the browser just to run that small web app is just wrong.
- aniviacat 2y ago
  I assume most people who dislike Electron dislike Tauri too, even though it doesn't need to ship a browser.

lucsky 2y ago

How in the everlasting love of rollerblading Jesus is a post about a new version of Blender devolving into a squillionth bullshit nonsensical rant about how boo-fucking-whoo Electron is so bad. My mind is blown. You guys are absolutely exhausting.