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Dude, I have no doubt your service IS way more useful than craiglist. I look forward to using it when I next move. Just… don't dance around your motivations he

by phillmv 14y ago

Dude, I have no doubt your service IS way more useful than craiglist. I look forward to using it when I next move. Just… don't dance around your motivations here. You want to build a better service, and you need CL's data for that. CL doesn't want you to use their data. You said that's too bad. That's all there is to say.

stcredzero 14y ago
Is it really Craiglist's data? When I post to Craigslist, I think of the listing as my listing, not Craigslist's.
- fusiongyro 14y ago
  You probably feel like the stuff you upload to Facebook belongs to you too.
- tptacek 14y ago
  Yes: the copy of your listing that resides on Craigslist's servers is theirs. You are free to post the same listing to as many other sites as you want; Craigslist doesn't demand exclusivity. In that regard, your listing remains yours. You have no other claim to the posting on Craiglist itself.
  - stcredzero 14y ago
    Yes, but this can't reasonably include the material facts concerning the listing: how many bedrooms, the rental amount, the street and cross street. The data I just mentioned and the relationship between them is not something that Craigslist could reasonably own even if they did ask for exclusivity.
  - chc 14y ago
    But he said this doesn't involve touching Craiglist's servers at all. I admit I am drawing a blank as to how this would work, but the (seemingly impossible) description he offers seems to get around that objection.
    - tptacek 14y ago
      Manny spammers buy email lists. They don't harvest addresses themselves. By your logic, they've "gotten around the objection".
      - stcredzero 14y ago
        By your logic, they've "gotten around the objection". Not so fast. The full objection that people have with spammers isn't that the spammers have their email address. It's exactly how the email is used which comprises what people object to. I've been looking at Padmapper, and as far as I can tell, they are basically providing a better interface to Craigslist largely by aggregating data that Craigslist doesn't claim to own. Specifically how is Padmapper competing with Craigslist? How would such a mechanism not also apply to Google News, reddit, HN and various news sites? Is a "search bar" extension in Firefox competing with Google?
    - smacktoward 14y ago
      It appears they use an API provided by a company called 3taps: http://3taps.com/ http://3taps.com/ So they avoid touching Craigslist's servers by having a middleman do the touching for them.
      - ericd 14y ago
        Nah, they don't touch the servers either (I asked very explicitly about that). They get the info from Google's cache.
- raganwald 14y ago
  Here’s a comparison. You walk into a used instrument store looking for an eight string bass. Another fellow walks in at the same time looking to sell the bass. You wink at each other and meet outside, buy that bass, and cut out the middleman. It’s his bass and your money, but the reason you knew he had a bass to sell was the store. Likewise, it’s “your” listing data, but the reason padmapper is able to hire someone in the third world to read the internet and manually screen scrape the data—or whatever it is they’re going to do—is because craigslist aggregated it for them. This is very similar to the kerfuffle over allegations that Bing was scraping results from Google rather than organically indexing the web. It’s quite possibly legal, but it’s not particularly admirable. And I join Phil (disclosure: He once called me a “giant,” so I owe him) in suggesting that arguments that the ends justify the means are suspect. I’d prefer to see the padmapper folks put up a pirate flag and openly declare war on craigslist. Just come right out and call them the evil empire already.
  - kareemm 14y ago
    > I’d prefer to see the padmapper folks put up a pirate flag and openly declare war on craigslist. Perhaps the best moral decision (perhaps), but probably not the best business decision. Man in the arena, etc.
  - stcredzero 14y ago
    > the reason padmapper is able to hire someone in the third world to read the internet and manually screen scrape the data—or whatever it is they’re going to do—is because craigslist aggregated it for them. Here's where the rubber meets the road. As far as I can tell, 3taps is taking data out of the Google Cache and re-aggregating it. While stealing someone's aggregation of data is clearly wrong, re-aggregating data from public sources clearly isn't, both from a legal and moral sense, at least in the US. The material facts in each ad are public data. The fact that such an ad appeared on Craigslist with such facts is also public data. > And I join Phil...in suggesting that arguments that the ends justify the means are suspect. I'm also suspicious of ends justifying the means, but that isn't the whole story here. > I’d prefer to see the padmapper folks put up a pirate flag and openly declare war on Craigslist. Just come right out and call them the evil empire already. To me, Craigslist is the one being selfish and shortsighted here. If they back legislation seeking ownership rights over re-aggregation of data, that would be an "evil empire" move. It would be better for everyone if they subvert Padmapper instead of fighting it.
- gnaritas 14y ago
  It really doesn't matter what you "think", it's their data, you gave it to them, it's on their servers, and it cost them money to host it.
ericd 14y ago
The why is just as important as the what in these sorts of decisions. So, this post was my attempt to explain the thought process I went through that finally tipped the scales. Some people make life better via charity, I try to do it via software. So that's what's tipping the scales on my moral compass. Money can be useful for that too, but mostly as a tool, it's not my main motivator.
- phillmv 14y ago
  +1 That was just my immediate reaction. You sound like you're alright.
  - ericd 14y ago
    Thanks. Sorry if Andrey gave you any grief over this, he sort of alluded to that when we were chatting on IM.
- scarmig 14y ago
  I would respect you more if you just came out and said "fuck Craigslist, we're using their data" than go through a bunch of pie in the sky philosophical reasoning to justify your decision after the fact. Let's be frank and direct: you're being a dick to Craigslist, and you're doing it so you can build a better product. I even agree with that decision--Craigslist has brought it upon itself by creating what is (IMO) a mediocre and clearly substandard UI. But your choice is what it is. Embrace it.
  - stcredzero 14y ago
    > I would respect you more if you just came out and said "fuck Craigslist, we're using their data" The material facts of a listing on Craigslist don't belong to Craigslist. You can't copyright the fact that a given listing is for $2400 a month. You can't copyright that it's at a given street and cross-street and the number of bedrooms and bathrooms on the premises. I don't even think anyone should copyright the aggregate of the above data. To do so would be evil. (In that there would be widespread implications.) It's not their data. It's their listing. Those are two different things. Are you saying that Craigslist doesn't own the data, but it still owns the aggregation of the data?
mtrimpe 14y ago
I would've totally appreciated and understood a 'bring it on, we'll fight the good fight' style post. This however comes across as feeling sleazy, shrugging it off and doing it anyhow.
- ericd 14y ago
  Sorry, this isn't nearly that black and white.
bguthrie 14y ago
Self-interest isn't incompatible with passion and personal moral indignation. You're essentially accusing him, if I read you right, of being disingenuous: claiming he's restoring that data for one set of reasons, when really, he's doing it for another. I don't think it's fair of you to call his integrity into question, and I don't think he's done anything to merit it. I disagree that your reasons, not his, are "all there [are] to say."

by phillmv 14y ago

stcredzero 14y ago

Is it really Craiglist's data? When I post to Craigslist, I think of the listing as my listing, not Craigslist's.

fusiongyro 14y ago
You probably feel like the stuff you upload to Facebook belongs to you too.
tptacek 14y ago
Yes: the copy of your listing that resides on Craigslist's servers is theirs. You are free to post the same listing to as many other sites as you want; Craigslist doesn't demand exclusivity. In that regard, your listing remains yours. You have no other claim to the posting on Craiglist itself.
- stcredzero 14y ago
  Yes, but this can't reasonably include the material facts concerning the listing: how many bedrooms, the rental amount, the street and cross street. The data I just mentioned and the relationship between them is not something that Craigslist could reasonably own even if they did ask for exclusivity.
- chc 14y ago
  But he said this doesn't involve touching Craiglist's servers at all. I admit I am drawing a blank as to how this would work, but the (seemingly impossible) description he offers seems to get around that objection.
  - tptacek 14y ago
    Manny spammers buy email lists. They don't harvest addresses themselves. By your logic, they've "gotten around the objection".
    - stcredzero 14y ago
      By your logic, they've "gotten around the objection". Not so fast. The full objection that people have with spammers isn't that the spammers have their email address. It's exactly how the email is used which comprises what people object to. I've been looking at Padmapper, and as far as I can tell, they are basically providing a better interface to Craigslist largely by aggregating data that Craigslist doesn't claim to own. Specifically how is Padmapper competing with Craigslist? How would such a mechanism not also apply to Google News, reddit, HN and various news sites? Is a "search bar" extension in Firefox competing with Google?
  - smacktoward 14y ago
    It appears they use an API provided by a company called 3taps: http://3taps.com/ http://3taps.com/ So they avoid touching Craigslist's servers by having a middleman do the touching for them.
    - ericd 14y ago
      Nah, they don't touch the servers either (I asked very explicitly about that). They get the info from Google's cache.
raganwald 14y ago
Here’s a comparison. You walk into a used instrument store looking for an eight string bass. Another fellow walks in at the same time looking to sell the bass. You wink at each other and meet outside, buy that bass, and cut out the middleman. It’s his bass and your money, but the reason you knew he had a bass to sell was the store. Likewise, it’s “your” listing data, but the reason padmapper is able to hire someone in the third world to read the internet and manually screen scrape the data—or whatever it is they’re going to do—is because craigslist aggregated it for them. This is very similar to the kerfuffle over allegations that Bing was scraping results from Google rather than organically indexing the web. It’s quite possibly legal, but it’s not particularly admirable. And I join Phil (disclosure: He once called me a “giant,” so I owe him) in suggesting that arguments that the ends justify the means are suspect. I’d prefer to see the padmapper folks put up a pirate flag and openly declare war on craigslist. Just come right out and call them the evil empire already.
- kareemm 14y ago
  > I’d prefer to see the padmapper folks put up a pirate flag and openly declare war on craigslist. Perhaps the best moral decision (perhaps), but probably not the best business decision. Man in the arena, etc.
- stcredzero 14y ago
  > the reason padmapper is able to hire someone in the third world to read the internet and manually screen scrape the data—or whatever it is they’re going to do—is because craigslist aggregated it for them. Here's where the rubber meets the road. As far as I can tell, 3taps is taking data out of the Google Cache and re-aggregating it. While stealing someone's aggregation of data is clearly wrong, re-aggregating data from public sources clearly isn't, both from a legal and moral sense, at least in the US. The material facts in each ad are public data. The fact that such an ad appeared on Craigslist with such facts is also public data. > And I join Phil...in suggesting that arguments that the ends justify the means are suspect. I'm also suspicious of ends justifying the means, but that isn't the whole story here. > I’d prefer to see the padmapper folks put up a pirate flag and openly declare war on Craigslist. Just come right out and call them the evil empire already. To me, Craigslist is the one being selfish and shortsighted here. If they back legislation seeking ownership rights over re-aggregation of data, that would be an "evil empire" move. It would be better for everyone if they subvert Padmapper instead of fighting it.
gnaritas 14y ago
It really doesn't matter what you "think", it's their data, you gave it to them, it's on their servers, and it cost them money to host it.

ericd 14y ago

The why is just as important as the what in these sorts of decisions. So, this post was my attempt to explain the thought process I went through that finally tipped the scales. Some people make life better via charity, I try to do it via software. So that's what's tipping the scales on my moral compass. Money can be useful for that too, but mostly as a tool, it's not my main motivator.

phillmv 14y ago
+1 That was just my immediate reaction. You sound like you're alright.
- ericd 14y ago
  Thanks. Sorry if Andrey gave you any grief over this, he sort of alluded to that when we were chatting on IM.
scarmig 14y ago
I would respect you more if you just came out and said "fuck Craigslist, we're using their data" than go through a bunch of pie in the sky philosophical reasoning to justify your decision after the fact. Let's be frank and direct: you're being a dick to Craigslist, and you're doing it so you can build a better product. I even agree with that decision--Craigslist has brought it upon itself by creating what is (IMO) a mediocre and clearly substandard UI. But your choice is what it is. Embrace it.
- stcredzero 14y ago
  > I would respect you more if you just came out and said "fuck Craigslist, we're using their data" The material facts of a listing on Craigslist don't belong to Craigslist. You can't copyright the fact that a given listing is for $2400 a month. You can't copyright that it's at a given street and cross-street and the number of bedrooms and bathrooms on the premises. I don't even think anyone should copyright the aggregate of the above data. To do so would be evil. (In that there would be widespread implications.) It's not their data. It's their listing. Those are two different things. Are you saying that Craigslist doesn't own the data, but it still owns the aggregation of the data?

mtrimpe 14y ago

I would've totally appreciated and understood a 'bring it on, we'll fight the good fight' style post. This however comes across as feeling sleazy, shrugging it off and doing it anyhow.

ericd 14y ago
Sorry, this isn't nearly that black and white.

bguthrie 14y ago

Self-interest isn't incompatible with passion and personal moral indignation. You're essentially accusing him, if I read you right, of being disingenuous: claiming he's restoring that data for one set of reasons, when really, he's doing it for another. I don't think it's fair of you to call his integrity into question, and I don't think he's done anything to merit it. I disagree that your reasons, not his, are "all there [are] to say."