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Can someone explain to me how this works legally? It seems a bit too convenient that you can ignore someone's T&Cs and use an unlicensed third-party service ins

Can someone explain to me how this works legally? It seems a bit too convenient that you can ignore someone's T&Cs and use an unlicensed third-party service instead.

eli 14y ago
I don't think there's a whole lot of caselaw here, so I think it's all a bit of a grey area. One thing I can say from experience is that judges typically frown on "clever hacks" to get around legal obligations. IANAL.
- mindslight 14y ago
  A TOS is only a legal obligation if one enters into said agreement in the first place, which is questionable even when one has signed up for an account. In most cases, it's mere wishful thinking or just extra garbage for lawlyers to bully people with.
debacle 14y ago
The meatspace analogy would be having 100 data technicians transcribe all of the Craigslist ads. You're still stealing the Craigslist content and database, ergo you're still liable for damages.
- delackner 14y ago
  There is no protection for a database of public facts under US law, contrary to say the UK. Craiglist's data is all public facts.
  - debacle 14y ago
    Posted elsewhere in this thread: http://www.bitlaw.com/copyright/database.html http://www.bitlaw.com/copyright/database.html http://www.bitlaw.com/source/cases/copyright/feist.html http://www.bitlaw.com/source/cases/copyright/feist.html If you read the second link, you'll see that it is exactly what the OP is doing and it has already been decided in favor of the database owner in case law.
    - Rudism 14y ago
      It actually sounds like the opposite was ultimately decided by the supreme court. Two lower courts decided in favor of the DB owner (in this case analogous to Craigslist), but the Supreme Court found that the database did not meet creativity requirements to fall under copyright law (in the example, a company was not allowed to claim copyright over a database of phone listings in alphabetical order). Applying this example to the Craigslist situation (in a decidedly IANAL fashion), Craigslist would have to be able to argue that the manner in which it "selects", "coordinates" and "arranges" its data is creative and unique enough to be protected by copyright law, and furthermore that PadMapper's use of the data infringed on that specific creative selection, coordination, and arrangement of the data (since the data itself is still not protected by copyright).
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
Rudism 14y ago
From what I gather, the Craigslist T&Cs specifically forbid scraping data off their website. They explicitly call out the fact that they do not own the actual data/listings/facts on their website, so those are public domain (or possibly owned by the person who created the listing, who knows). By scraping the data from Google's cache, you're no longer in violation of the T&Cs because you're not scraping from Craigslist's website anymore. You are free to use the data obtained in this method because Craigslist doesn't own the data. (IANAL)
- slig 14y ago
  What about breaking Google's TOS by using a bot to scrap data from them?
  - Rudism 14y ago
    Do they really have a rule against scraping their scraped data? If so, you'd be in violation of that, but that's your problem with Google now, not Craigslist.
- rprasad 14y ago
  IAAL. And what you just said is not true, at all, in the U.S. It may be true in Somalia or some other country without an established legal system. Google's cached Craigslist site is, legally, a copy of the Craiglist site, which just happens to be hosted on a different server with permission (under fair use, it is essentially compelled permission). Craiglist does not own the facts on their website (nobody can own facts), but they do own the data (a filtered or specifically selected set of facts) or a license to use the data. They also have a license to post the listings (which are owned by their users). These licenses do not extend beyond Craiglist. Craiglist's T&C bars scraping because that is an end-run around both the user's copyright in the listing and Craiglists' licenses in the listings and underlying data. By scraping from a copy of Craiglist's website, 3Tap and Padmapper are still scraping from Craiglist's website.
  - exue 14y ago
    1: Stop hatin' on Somalia 2: The US Supreme Court has in fact decided that the 'data' is not not copyrightable in terms of phone book listings. Because they are no longer scraping off Craigslist itself, they are no longer violating terms of service directly. Craigslist doesn't get to control what Google or 3tap allows. See: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4219085 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4219085

Can someone explain to me how this works legally? It seems a bit too convenient that you can ignore someone's T&Cs and use an unlicensed third-party service instead.

eli 14y ago

I don't think there's a whole lot of caselaw here, so I think it's all a bit of a grey area. One thing I can say from experience is that judges typically frown on "clever hacks" to get around legal obligations. IANAL.

mindslight 14y ago
A TOS is only a legal obligation if one enters into said agreement in the first place, which is questionable even when one has signed up for an account. In most cases, it's mere wishful thinking or just extra garbage for lawlyers to bully people with.

debacle 14y ago

The meatspace analogy would be having 100 data technicians transcribe all of the Craigslist ads. You're still stealing the Craigslist content and database, ergo you're still liable for damages.

delackner 14y ago
There is no protection for a database of public facts under US law, contrary to say the UK. Craiglist's data is all public facts.
- debacle 14y ago
  Posted elsewhere in this thread: http://www.bitlaw.com/copyright/database.html http://www.bitlaw.com/copyright/database.html http://www.bitlaw.com/source/cases/copyright/feist.html http://www.bitlaw.com/source/cases/copyright/feist.html If you read the second link, you'll see that it is exactly what the OP is doing and it has already been decided in favor of the database owner in case law.
  - Rudism 14y ago
    It actually sounds like the opposite was ultimately decided by the supreme court. Two lower courts decided in favor of the DB owner (in this case analogous to Craigslist), but the Supreme Court found that the database did not meet creativity requirements to fall under copyright law (in the example, a company was not allowed to claim copyright over a database of phone listings in alphabetical order). Applying this example to the Craigslist situation (in a decidedly IANAL fashion), Craigslist would have to be able to argue that the manner in which it "selects", "coordinates" and "arranges" its data is creative and unique enough to be protected by copyright law, and furthermore that PadMapper's use of the data infringed on that specific creative selection, coordination, and arrangement of the data (since the data itself is still not protected by copyright).
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]

Rudism 14y ago

From what I gather, the Craigslist T&Cs specifically forbid scraping data off their website. They explicitly call out the fact that they do not own the actual data/listings/facts on their website, so those are public domain (or possibly owned by the person who created the listing, who knows). By scraping the data from Google's cache, you're no longer in violation of the T&Cs because you're not scraping from Craigslist's website anymore. You are free to use the data obtained in this method because Craigslist doesn't own the data. (IANAL)

slig 14y ago
What about breaking Google's TOS by using a bot to scrap data from them?
- Rudism 14y ago
  Do they really have a rule against scraping their scraped data? If so, you'd be in violation of that, but that's your problem with Google now, not Craigslist.
rprasad 14y ago
IAAL. And what you just said is not true, at all, in the U.S. It may be true in Somalia or some other country without an established legal system. Google's cached Craigslist site is, legally, a copy of the Craiglist site, which just happens to be hosted on a different server with permission (under fair use, it is essentially compelled permission). Craiglist does not own the facts on their website (nobody can own facts), but they do own the data (a filtered or specifically selected set of facts) or a license to use the data. They also have a license to post the listings (which are owned by their users). These licenses do not extend beyond Craiglist. Craiglist's T&C bars scraping because that is an end-run around both the user's copyright in the listing and Craiglists' licenses in the listings and underlying data. By scraping from a copy of Craiglist's website, 3Tap and Padmapper are still scraping from Craiglist's website.
- exue 14y ago
  1: Stop hatin' on Somalia 2: The US Supreme Court has in fact decided that the 'data' is not not copyrightable in terms of phone book listings. Because they are no longer scraping off Craigslist itself, they are no longer violating terms of service directly. Craigslist doesn't get to control what Google or 3tap allows. See: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4219085 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4219085