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>I’ve been wrestling with whether to bring back Craigslist listings in the search results. I’ve found a way to include them that I’m told is legally kosher sinc

by phillmv 14y ago

>I’ve been wrestling with whether to bring back Craigslist listings in the search results. I’ve found a way to include them that I’m told is legally kosher since it doesn’t touch their servers at all, but it still seems somewhat dickish to go against their wishes in this, and I’ve always had a lot of respect for what they’ve done for the world. Also, who wants to waste their time in court? >But then I did some back of the envelope estimates of how much of people’s time and effort it would waste if I didn’t, and it became clear how much less nice it is to waste the time of millions of apartment hunters out of stubbornness or some clearly inaccurate assumption about the will of the community. Christ, what an asshole. Translation: "We found a loophole that lets us get around the spirit of what was communicated to us so we could continue to build out our product. I'm going to conveniently step over the moral grey lines of using someone else's data without their consent by claiming my service is better."

ericd 14y ago
Ouch, sorry, I thought it was the right thing to do, on the balance. Like you said, it's a really morally gray decision, either way, but I think it's actually worse to do nothing.
- sandieman 14y ago
  It was the right thing.
- dinedal 14y ago
  Ignore this guy, you're doing the right thing, and I thank you. e: To expand, CL obviously picked on you specifically, and it deprives all the apartment hunters of your service when applied to the largest apartment listing available. I could see it if they somehow filled the void with a comparable service, before they turned it off, but by depriving padmapper access, it makes it worse for everyone.
  - tptacek 14y ago
    Be careful reading these comments. There's an overwhelming bias on HN in favor of "rules that impede startups are there to be broken", and, of course, 3/4 of the site is going to cheer you on. Remember when Mark Pincus said early stage startups need (as I remember) to lie, cheat, and steal to get off the ground? HN cheered that on too. Just remember that every nerd that has ever broken any rule --- from seeding a torrent of a movie to scraping a competing site to (yes, go look it up) exploit SQL injection to dump a company's mail spool to the Internet --- has come up with a personally compelling rationale to do it. MAFIAA, "we're helping apartment hunters", "STRATFOR was an evil intelligence company". These are all of a kind. The fact is, you compete with Craigslist. However much "better" your service is, customers don't agree: they overwhelmingly prefer Craigslist, because that's where the market is: the "killer feature" in your space is the market. So, to stay viable in the face of competition that has you beaten dead to rights, you've rationalized cheating them. I don't find what you're doing detestable, or anything like that, but it sure is annoying to watch you pat yourself on the back for it. I'm with Phillip. Have you read a lot of his comments? I have. He's not dumb, nor is he a troll.
    - ericd 14y ago
      You're right, it does come off as arrogant to say that it's that much more efficient, and that that justifies making this decision. I think that the potential for doing good plays into any moral decision, though, so I don't think it's out of place in trying to explain my rationale. My intention definitely isn't to pat myself on the back here.
      - Eliezer 14y ago
        It is more efficient and that does justify the decision. Consequentialist ethics runs on quantitative considerations rather than right-of-way, so "it's more efficient" isn't an absolute right-of-way that would mean that you ought to do anything efficient regardless of the consequences - a lot of deontologists have trouble comprehending this - and if Craigslist were acting differently, or Padmapper, "efficiency" might not be enough to make it right. If Craigslist had their own version of the service, or they were about to roll one out, then efficiency wouldn't make it right. In this case, though, I'm willing to say that Craigslist doesn't have a moral right to prevent there from being a better UI to the renter's market, which is a key system resource even if they happened to create it. How would you feel if there were a private company that had invented DNS, taken on the task of gathering DNS data from many submissions, done it ad-free for a few years, and then they started deleting sites they didn't like from the Internet and suing anyone who tried to scrape their data and add the missing sites back in?
- phillmv 14y ago
  Dude, I have no doubt your service IS way more useful than craiglist. I look forward to using it when I next move. Just… don't dance around your motivations here. You want to build a better service, and you need CL's data for that. CL doesn't want you to use their data. You said that's too bad. That's all there is to say.
  - stcredzero 14y ago
    Is it really Craiglist's data? When I post to Craigslist, I think of the listing as my listing, not Craigslist's.
    - fusiongyro 14y ago
      You probably feel like the stuff you upload to Facebook belongs to you too.
    - tptacek 14y ago
      Yes: the copy of your listing that resides on Craigslist's servers is theirs. You are free to post the same listing to as many other sites as you want; Craigslist doesn't demand exclusivity. In that regard, your listing remains yours. You have no other claim to the posting on Craiglist itself.
      - stcredzero 14y ago
        Yes, but this can't reasonably include the material facts concerning the listing: how many bedrooms, the rental amount, the street and cross street. The data I just mentioned and the relationship between them is not something that Craigslist could reasonably own even if they did ask for exclusivity.
      - chc 14y ago
        But he said this doesn't involve touching Craiglist's servers at all. I admit I am drawing a blank as to how this would work, but the (seemingly impossible) description he offers seems to get around that objection.
- loceng 14y ago
  It depends what your intent is. If you're on the consumers' side, people's side, wanting to make their lives easier, better, through efficiency and therefore increased productivity - then being integrated into everything will of course cause this. Best case scenario would be some form of partnership, however Craiglist seems to want to create and control an ecosystem instead of being the management piece, instead of finding a way to survive as a management piece.
- Eliezer 14y ago
  I liked that calculation. I was inwardly cheering while reading it. Quantitative ethics FTW.
  - jessriedel 14y ago
    You had to be suspicious of this calculation, though, right? It certainly aligns nicely with Padmapper's financial interests.
    - ericd 14y ago
      It actually doesn't align, though. I'm not going to go into detail, but my expected finances are probably higher without doing this. That was an argument against doing this.
      - jessriedel 14y ago
        Color me skeptical. Padmapper is a for profit business, and Craiglist ads make up a huge fraction of all online housing listings. In the absence of any explanation at all, I hope it's understandable why I wouldn't just take your word on it. In any case, I agree with others that you don't need to bring these kind of justifications to bear. Craigslist has no right (either legally or morally) to facts about rental locations.
        iamwil 14y ago
        As someone that knows Eric personally, I can confirm that he'll make less money by showing craigslist listings. However, I'll leave the details up to him, though I understand why without them, you're skeptical.
        ericd 14y ago
        Thanks Wil!
        ericd 14y ago
        PadMapper is actually a pretty unusual "business" since I'm the only person who works on it full time and it grew out of a hobby project, and still isn't really run like a business. But yeah, that's generally a reasonable assumption. I don't have to, but I thought it'd help to explain my reasoning to people.
- cwp 14y ago
  Nah, it's not morally gray. You guys are a search engine. Craigslist may not like what you're doing, but that doesn't make it wrong. Traditional publishers hate Google, despite all the traffic it sends them. So what? Getting a C+D from Craigslist is a good sign. It means you matter. Hang in there long enough, and Craigslist won't be able to cut you off, because a good chunk of their traffic will come through you. It's kind of weird to think of Craigslist as stodgy old-media using the courts to defend an out-dated business model because they don't like being disrupted by new technology, but here we are.
  - genwin 14y ago
    > Hang in there long enough, and Craigslist won't be able to cut you off, because a good chunk of their traffic will come through you. If Craiglist was motivated that way, why would they have sent the C+D in the first place? It seems that CL is opposed to anyone violating their TOS, period, regardless of benefit to CL.
    - cwp 14y ago
      Craigslist dominates apartment rental advertising. Landlords post to CL because that's where the renters are looking, and renters look on CL because that's where landlords post apartments. But CL does have competitors. Lots of sites want a piece of that business, they just can't overcome the network effect that protects Craigslist. Right now, the overwhelming majority of pads on Padmapper are Craigslist posts. But that's just because the overwhelming majority of all advertised apartments are Craigslist posts. If people start using Padmapper in large numbers, it breaks the symmetry of CL's dominance. Landlords are still posting to CL, but renters are finding those posts through Padmapper. It won't be long before landlords realize that those renters will also find posts on Kijiji or Apartments.com or whatever. When that happen's CL is in trouble, because it's revenue comes from landlords in certain cities paying to post. CL doesn't care about the TOS per se; the TOS are designed to prevent just such a scenario.
      - genwin 14y ago
        That makes great sense. I hadn't seen that angle.
- keeptrying 14y ago
  I've used padmapper and its definitely teh number one choice when apartment hunting. Its not even close. Rant/ Just keep going man. If you stop doing what you do you will lose the millions(?) of people you are helping. Seriously other apartment sites just don't get it. They SUCK ... suck so bad that I'd rather bang my head on the table than use them. Without PadMapper, craigslist is worse than the other sites. I don't understand why they just don't buy you outright - thats what should happen if anyone cares about the effing consumer. /Rant Please keep going and doing what you are doing. -Very thankful apartment hunter.
- blhack 14y ago
  Eric, it's not even close to a grey area. Like...not even remotely close to a grey area. Consider the following: I leave a bowl of candy on my doorstep for Halloween with a note that says "Please take one piece of candy.". You, however, have a bunch of friends back home who aren't at my house to get the candy, so you take the entire bowl. You defend this, citing a "grey area" because your friends want the candy, and you're making them happy because you took it from me and gave it to them. That's what you did. No grey area. You just wanted the candy. (Do I support craigslist's decision? No, I think it's stupid, but it's their stupid decision to make.)
- eevilspock 14y ago
  Eric, if you are genuinely doing this for the good of the many and not for yourself, then you would use an alternative that is neither "somewhat dickish" (you're admission, not my judgement) nor somewhat cowardly (You are really just hiding behind 3Taps lawyers) if such an alternative were available. Would you not? I think you have one: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4220106 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4220106
  - J3L2404 14y ago
    No profit in it. This is one of those "startups".
  - ericd 14y ago
    Hey, I responded there, but I'm pretty confused about what you're proposing. Email me at eric@padmapper.com?
praxulus 14y ago
As somebody currently looking for an apartment, I wholeheartedly agree with his claim. It's fine if craigslist wants me to use their competing mapping service, I would even pay them a small fee for it, but if they don't have one yet then I just get fucked. Craigslist isn't being "nice" to me, so as long as padmapper isn't doing anything illegal, I really don't care if they're being "nice" to Craigslist.
- Eliezer 14y ago
  That's probably a good summary of the way I feel too - like Craigslist defected first in this Prisoner's Dilemma.
voxmatt 14y ago
By CL's Terms of Use, it's not CL's data. They just post it. It's clearly a gray area, but let's be clear: IT'S NOT CL'S DATA. Craigslist actually makes it clear that it's the user's data and that when it's posted on CL, it's being posted publicly.
- eli 14y ago
  This does not seem like an important distinction. The user implicitly authorized it to be posted on CL by virtue of, well, posting it on CL. They did not authorize any other sites to post it. Or am I missing something?
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - briandear 14y ago
    I agree. When I post a resume to a job site, that doean't mean I want it posted in other places without my consent. It seems like a dick move to repost people's ads without their consent. If, technically te data belongs to the poster, than it's distinctly dickish to post that data in other venues without their permission. Perhaps someone only wants their add on the Scanton Craigslist and not on other sites. I posted a classified add on a site once selling some furniture (not CL but a hyper local site) and I started getting dozens I calls from buyers after I had removed the ad because some ass thought it was a 'service' to repost my ad, even though the stuff sold via the original site within a day. I don't doubt Padmapper can be useful, but if it is genuinely better, then one shouldn't have to steal CL data to make it work. Build your own damned business.
  - jellicle 14y ago
    If Craigslist is explicitly disclaiming copyright in the data they post, how can they sue for copyright infringement? The user may be able to. But the users won't do so, at least not in any significant numbers.
    - dangrossman 14y ago
16s 14y ago
Outside Developers like/want the CL customer case, their reputation and their page views and see them as a quick, easy path to success. However, you are not entitled to them. Understanding this and moving on are key to doing it yourself and blazing your own path. Attempting to work around access limitations and usage restrictions and then attempting to justify your actions is only going to end badly.
- stcredzero 14y ago
  > Outside Developers like/want the CL customer base, their reputation and their page views and see them as a quick, easy path to success. However, you are not entitled to them. As far as I can see, Padmapper is not using the Craigslist reputation or page views. The data Padmapper is aggregating is treated as public information by Craigslist's own policy. Given these facts, I don't see what he's doing that's wrong, specifically.
  - briandear 14y ago
    It's not public information. The listing data belongs to the original poster who entered into a contractual relationship with CL -- not with PadMapper. If anything the ads are covered by copyright, held by the person who wrote the specific ad. If the service is so great, then start calling the ad posters and offer them the chance to post on PadMapper. Otherwise, it's theft. We can moralize all we want but reproducing someone's ad without their permission is a violation of the poster's rights, even if some of us feel that it's in their best interest. The choice should belong to the person posting the ad.
    - stcredzero 14y ago
      > It's not public information. As far as I can tell, it is public information. Craigslist has a claim on the listing and not the information in it. > The listing data belongs to the original poster who entered into a contractual relationship with CL -- not with PadMapper. If the data belongs to the original poster and not Craigslist, then the original poster can have a beef with Padmapper, and Craigslist has no claim. > If anything the ads are covered by copyright, held by the person who wrote the specific ad. In as far as Padmapper is using the data in the listing, and not the actual listing, I don't see any violation of copyright. Otherwise, one encyclopedia could sue another one for also publishing the same material facts in an article. If your logic held, there could only be one encyclopedia in the world. > If the service is so great, then start calling the ad posters and offer them the chance to post on PadMapper. Otherwise, it's theft. We can moralize all we want but reproducing someone's ad without their permission is a violation of the poster's rights, even if some of us feel that it's in their best interest. The choice should belong to the person posting the ad. I don't think you're taking all the implications into account. By this reasoning, Google bots should only put something in the Google Cache if the original poster gives specific permission. I agree that reproducing someone's ad without their permission is wrong. However, reproducing the material facts of their ad is clearly not immoral or illegal. Also, if the first person to aggregate public data effectively has a copyright to that data, there would be widespread and harmful implications.
gruseom 14y ago
Christ, what an asshole. What? Eric is so obviously not an asshole that your comment is just weird.
temphn 14y ago
Craigslist is being the RIAA/MPAA in this situation. Users (buyers/sellers) want to remix the same content in a different form, and the RIAA/MPAA/Craigslist won't let them. So then it comes down to whether this can be technologically stopped or not.
samstave 14y ago
BS. Get over your analysis - this service is farking amazing and Craig is an idiot for trying to thwart it. Craig has consistently chosen to sit on his hands and do nothing because he is to afraid to mess with the CL money pot. Things evolve. CL has not evolved hardly at all and after 10 years + it is hurting people for its lack of change.
- rhizome 14y ago
  How exactly is Craigslist "hurting people?"
  - stcredzero 14y ago
    More that they're not benefitting their users as much as they could otherwise. (That is as good a reason for any for a website to give up.)
  - samstave 14y ago
    I meant: hurting their experience and wasting their time, not harming people.
    - rhizome 14y ago
      Eh, works fine for me. EDIT: Would you say that HN is hurting people through their choice to stick with a poorly-performing language for serving its website?
      - samstave 14y ago
        Yes! I hat "unknown/expired link" - It wastes my time and frustrates me when I just leave the page up for a time then click more and get that error. I also can't stand the URLs not being human readable.
        rhizome 14y ago
        I can dig it, but you know that CL is extremely fast, right? Even in the oft-lamented interface, it's easy to go to the right place. Everybody can figure out Craigslist.
kareemm 14y ago
> Christ, what an asshole Downvoted for ad hominem. One of the wonderful things about HN is that it provides a forum for civil discussion. If that's your style, there are lots of other places on the web that are better venues for you.
joering2 14y ago
> step over the moral grey lines of using someone else's data without their consent by claiming my service is better OK, IANAL, but isn't the content of craiglist's post owned by the author of said post, not the Craiglist itself? (sorry haven't read their TOS/TOC). Just like you own your tweets, not the twitter? Otherwise, I could keep posting copyrighted material (like books) and then suing Craiglist for copyright infringement (something Vivendi did to Youtube) since CL would claim responsibility/IP rights. I am sure that CL protect itself from acts like that pushing the blame/responsibility at users (I don't think DMCA would work in each and single case). So one could argue that this is each and every CL author right/responsibility to file copyright infringement claim with whomever harvest CL posts, and CL should, for lack of better words, "mind their own business". In other words, they lack copyrights over the content their users are creating. Sure they can remove the post if it violates TOS, but in the best scenario they could email the author "hey we stumbled upon your CL posting on XYZ website, do you want to file a claim?", but really nothing more than that, right? I know it sound bit weird, but isnt't it what AirBNB and others do: while your local/state law may forbid subletting, AirBNB hands are clean because they are in business of providing a social platform to find and post vacant apartments, not enforce or monitor if their users follow their local renting laws.
shazow 14y ago
As someone who knows Eric personally, I can vouch that he's not an asshole. In fact, that is literally how he thinks and those are his real motivations. He's not the type to come out and call someone else, like Craigslist's CEO, an asshole. In fact, he comes out saying that he admires Craigslist. That's just the way he is.
baddox 14y ago
The thing about morality is that it's much more subjective than law. If someone does something that is legal (or is presumed to be legal), on what authority do you claim their actions to be "morally grey?"

by phillmv 14y ago

ericd 14y ago

Ouch, sorry, I thought it was the right thing to do, on the balance. Like you said, it's a really morally gray decision, either way, but I think it's actually worse to do nothing.

sandieman 14y ago
It was the right thing.
dinedal 14y ago
Ignore this guy, you're doing the right thing, and I thank you. e: To expand, CL obviously picked on you specifically, and it deprives all the apartment hunters of your service when applied to the largest apartment listing available. I could see it if they somehow filled the void with a comparable service, before they turned it off, but by depriving padmapper access, it makes it worse for everyone.
- tptacek 14y ago
  Be careful reading these comments. There's an overwhelming bias on HN in favor of "rules that impede startups are there to be broken", and, of course, 3/4 of the site is going to cheer you on. Remember when Mark Pincus said early stage startups need (as I remember) to lie, cheat, and steal to get off the ground? HN cheered that on too. Just remember that every nerd that has ever broken any rule --- from seeding a torrent of a movie to scraping a competing site to (yes, go look it up) exploit SQL injection to dump a company's mail spool to the Internet --- has come up with a personally compelling rationale to do it. MAFIAA, "we're helping apartment hunters", "STRATFOR was an evil intelligence company". These are all of a kind. The fact is, you compete with Craigslist. However much "better" your service is, customers don't agree: they overwhelmingly prefer Craigslist, because that's where the market is: the "killer feature" in your space is the market. So, to stay viable in the face of competition that has you beaten dead to rights, you've rationalized cheating them. I don't find what you're doing detestable, or anything like that, but it sure is annoying to watch you pat yourself on the back for it. I'm with Phillip. Have you read a lot of his comments? I have. He's not dumb, nor is he a troll.
  - ericd 14y ago
    You're right, it does come off as arrogant to say that it's that much more efficient, and that that justifies making this decision. I think that the potential for doing good plays into any moral decision, though, so I don't think it's out of place in trying to explain my rationale. My intention definitely isn't to pat myself on the back here.
    - Eliezer 14y ago
      It is more efficient and that does justify the decision. Consequentialist ethics runs on quantitative considerations rather than right-of-way, so "it's more efficient" isn't an absolute right-of-way that would mean that you ought to do anything efficient regardless of the consequences - a lot of deontologists have trouble comprehending this - and if Craigslist were acting differently, or Padmapper, "efficiency" might not be enough to make it right. If Craigslist had their own version of the service, or they were about to roll one out, then efficiency wouldn't make it right. In this case, though, I'm willing to say that Craigslist doesn't have a moral right to prevent there from being a better UI to the renter's market, which is a key system resource even if they happened to create it. How would you feel if there were a private company that had invented DNS, taken on the task of gathering DNS data from many submissions, done it ad-free for a few years, and then they started deleting sites they didn't like from the Internet and suing anyone who tried to scrape their data and add the missing sites back in?
phillmv 14y ago
Dude, I have no doubt your service IS way more useful than craiglist. I look forward to using it when I next move. Just… don't dance around your motivations here. You want to build a better service, and you need CL's data for that. CL doesn't want you to use their data. You said that's too bad. That's all there is to say.
- stcredzero 14y ago
  Is it really Craiglist's data? When I post to Craigslist, I think of the listing as my listing, not Craigslist's.
  - fusiongyro 14y ago
    You probably feel like the stuff you upload to Facebook belongs to you too.
  - tptacek 14y ago
    Yes: the copy of your listing that resides on Craigslist's servers is theirs. You are free to post the same listing to as many other sites as you want; Craigslist doesn't demand exclusivity. In that regard, your listing remains yours. You have no other claim to the posting on Craiglist itself.
    - stcredzero 14y ago
      Yes, but this can't reasonably include the material facts concerning the listing: how many bedrooms, the rental amount, the street and cross street. The data I just mentioned and the relationship between them is not something that Craigslist could reasonably own even if they did ask for exclusivity.
    - chc 14y ago
      But he said this doesn't involve touching Craiglist's servers at all. I admit I am drawing a blank as to how this would work, but the (seemingly impossible) description he offers seems to get around that objection.
loceng 14y ago
It depends what your intent is. If you're on the consumers' side, people's side, wanting to make their lives easier, better, through efficiency and therefore increased productivity - then being integrated into everything will of course cause this. Best case scenario would be some form of partnership, however Craiglist seems to want to create and control an ecosystem instead of being the management piece, instead of finding a way to survive as a management piece.
Eliezer 14y ago
I liked that calculation. I was inwardly cheering while reading it. Quantitative ethics FTW.
- jessriedel 14y ago
  You had to be suspicious of this calculation, though, right? It certainly aligns nicely with Padmapper's financial interests.
  - ericd 14y ago
    It actually doesn't align, though. I'm not going to go into detail, but my expected finances are probably higher without doing this. That was an argument against doing this.
    - jessriedel 14y ago
      Color me skeptical. Padmapper is a for profit business, and Craiglist ads make up a huge fraction of all online housing listings. In the absence of any explanation at all, I hope it's understandable why I wouldn't just take your word on it. In any case, I agree with others that you don't need to bring these kind of justifications to bear. Craigslist has no right (either legally or morally) to facts about rental locations.
      - iamwil 14y ago
        As someone that knows Eric personally, I can confirm that he'll make less money by showing craigslist listings. However, I'll leave the details up to him, though I understand why without them, you're skeptical.
        ericd 14y ago
        Thanks Wil!
      - ericd 14y ago
        PadMapper is actually a pretty unusual "business" since I'm the only person who works on it full time and it grew out of a hobby project, and still isn't really run like a business. But yeah, that's generally a reasonable assumption. I don't have to, but I thought it'd help to explain my reasoning to people.
cwp 14y ago
Nah, it's not morally gray. You guys are a search engine. Craigslist may not like what you're doing, but that doesn't make it wrong. Traditional publishers hate Google, despite all the traffic it sends them. So what? Getting a C+D from Craigslist is a good sign. It means you matter. Hang in there long enough, and Craigslist won't be able to cut you off, because a good chunk of their traffic will come through you. It's kind of weird to think of Craigslist as stodgy old-media using the courts to defend an out-dated business model because they don't like being disrupted by new technology, but here we are.
- genwin 14y ago
  > Hang in there long enough, and Craigslist won't be able to cut you off, because a good chunk of their traffic will come through you. If Craiglist was motivated that way, why would they have sent the C+D in the first place? It seems that CL is opposed to anyone violating their TOS, period, regardless of benefit to CL.
  - cwp 14y ago
    Craigslist dominates apartment rental advertising. Landlords post to CL because that's where the renters are looking, and renters look on CL because that's where landlords post apartments. But CL does have competitors. Lots of sites want a piece of that business, they just can't overcome the network effect that protects Craigslist. Right now, the overwhelming majority of pads on Padmapper are Craigslist posts. But that's just because the overwhelming majority of all advertised apartments are Craigslist posts. If people start using Padmapper in large numbers, it breaks the symmetry of CL's dominance. Landlords are still posting to CL, but renters are finding those posts through Padmapper. It won't be long before landlords realize that those renters will also find posts on Kijiji or Apartments.com or whatever. When that happen's CL is in trouble, because it's revenue comes from landlords in certain cities paying to post. CL doesn't care about the TOS per se; the TOS are designed to prevent just such a scenario.
    - genwin 14y ago
      That makes great sense. I hadn't seen that angle.
keeptrying 14y ago
I've used padmapper and its definitely teh number one choice when apartment hunting. Its not even close. Rant/ Just keep going man. If you stop doing what you do you will lose the millions(?) of people you are helping. Seriously other apartment sites just don't get it. They SUCK ... suck so bad that I'd rather bang my head on the table than use them. Without PadMapper, craigslist is worse than the other sites. I don't understand why they just don't buy you outright - thats what should happen if anyone cares about the effing consumer. /Rant Please keep going and doing what you are doing. -Very thankful apartment hunter.
blhack 14y ago
Eric, it's not even close to a grey area. Like...not even remotely close to a grey area. Consider the following: I leave a bowl of candy on my doorstep for Halloween with a note that says "Please take one piece of candy.". You, however, have a bunch of friends back home who aren't at my house to get the candy, so you take the entire bowl. You defend this, citing a "grey area" because your friends want the candy, and you're making them happy because you took it from me and gave it to them. That's what you did. No grey area. You just wanted the candy. (Do I support craigslist's decision? No, I think it's stupid, but it's their stupid decision to make.)
eevilspock 14y ago
Eric, if you are genuinely doing this for the good of the many and not for yourself, then you would use an alternative that is neither "somewhat dickish" (you're admission, not my judgement) nor somewhat cowardly (You are really just hiding behind 3Taps lawyers) if such an alternative were available. Would you not? I think you have one: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4220106 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4220106
- J3L2404 14y ago
  No profit in it. This is one of those "startups".
- ericd 14y ago
  Hey, I responded there, but I'm pretty confused about what you're proposing. Email me at eric@padmapper.com?

praxulus 14y ago

As somebody currently looking for an apartment, I wholeheartedly agree with his claim. It's fine if craigslist wants me to use their competing mapping service, I would even pay them a small fee for it, but if they don't have one yet then I just get fucked. Craigslist isn't being "nice" to me, so as long as padmapper isn't doing anything illegal, I really don't care if they're being "nice" to Craigslist.

Eliezer 14y ago
That's probably a good summary of the way I feel too - like Craigslist defected first in this Prisoner's Dilemma.

voxmatt 14y ago

By CL's Terms of Use, it's not CL's data. They just post it. It's clearly a gray area, but let's be clear: IT'S NOT CL'S DATA. Craigslist actually makes it clear that it's the user's data and that when it's posted on CL, it's being posted publicly.

eli 14y ago
This does not seem like an important distinction. The user implicitly authorized it to be posted on CL by virtue of, well, posting it on CL. They did not authorize any other sites to post it. Or am I missing something?
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- briandear 14y ago
  I agree. When I post a resume to a job site, that doean't mean I want it posted in other places without my consent. It seems like a dick move to repost people's ads without their consent. If, technically te data belongs to the poster, than it's distinctly dickish to post that data in other venues without their permission. Perhaps someone only wants their add on the Scanton Craigslist and not on other sites. I posted a classified add on a site once selling some furniture (not CL but a hyper local site) and I started getting dozens I calls from buyers after I had removed the ad because some ass thought it was a 'service' to repost my ad, even though the stuff sold via the original site within a day. I don't doubt Padmapper can be useful, but if it is genuinely better, then one shouldn't have to steal CL data to make it work. Build your own damned business.
- jellicle 14y ago
  If Craigslist is explicitly disclaiming copyright in the data they post, how can they sue for copyright infringement? The user may be able to. But the users won't do so, at least not in any significant numbers.
  - dangrossman 14y ago

16s 14y ago

Outside Developers like/want the CL customer case, their reputation and their page views and see them as a quick, easy path to success. However, you are not entitled to them. Understanding this and moving on are key to doing it yourself and blazing your own path. Attempting to work around access limitations and usage restrictions and then attempting to justify your actions is only going to end badly.

stcredzero 14y ago
> Outside Developers like/want the CL customer base, their reputation and their page views and see them as a quick, easy path to success. However, you are not entitled to them. As far as I can see, Padmapper is not using the Craigslist reputation or page views. The data Padmapper is aggregating is treated as public information by Craigslist's own policy. Given these facts, I don't see what he's doing that's wrong, specifically.
- briandear 14y ago
  It's not public information. The listing data belongs to the original poster who entered into a contractual relationship with CL -- not with PadMapper. If anything the ads are covered by copyright, held by the person who wrote the specific ad. If the service is so great, then start calling the ad posters and offer them the chance to post on PadMapper. Otherwise, it's theft. We can moralize all we want but reproducing someone's ad without their permission is a violation of the poster's rights, even if some of us feel that it's in their best interest. The choice should belong to the person posting the ad.
  - stcredzero 14y ago
    > It's not public information. As far as I can tell, it is public information. Craigslist has a claim on the listing and not the information in it. > The listing data belongs to the original poster who entered into a contractual relationship with CL -- not with PadMapper. If the data belongs to the original poster and not Craigslist, then the original poster can have a beef with Padmapper, and Craigslist has no claim. > If anything the ads are covered by copyright, held by the person who wrote the specific ad. In as far as Padmapper is using the data in the listing, and not the actual listing, I don't see any violation of copyright. Otherwise, one encyclopedia could sue another one for also publishing the same material facts in an article. If your logic held, there could only be one encyclopedia in the world. > If the service is so great, then start calling the ad posters and offer them the chance to post on PadMapper. Otherwise, it's theft. We can moralize all we want but reproducing someone's ad without their permission is a violation of the poster's rights, even if some of us feel that it's in their best interest. The choice should belong to the person posting the ad. I don't think you're taking all the implications into account. By this reasoning, Google bots should only put something in the Google Cache if the original poster gives specific permission. I agree that reproducing someone's ad without their permission is wrong. However, reproducing the material facts of their ad is clearly not immoral or illegal. Also, if the first person to aggregate public data effectively has a copyright to that data, there would be widespread and harmful implications.

gruseom 14y ago

Christ, what an asshole. What? Eric is so obviously not an asshole that your comment is just weird.

temphn 14y ago

Craigslist is being the RIAA/MPAA in this situation. Users (buyers/sellers) want to remix the same content in a different form, and the RIAA/MPAA/Craigslist won't let them. So then it comes down to whether this can be technologically stopped or not.

samstave 14y ago

BS. Get over your analysis - this service is farking amazing and Craig is an idiot for trying to thwart it. Craig has consistently chosen to sit on his hands and do nothing because he is to afraid to mess with the CL money pot. Things evolve. CL has not evolved hardly at all and after 10 years + it is hurting people for its lack of change.

rhizome 14y ago
How exactly is Craigslist "hurting people?"
- stcredzero 14y ago
  More that they're not benefitting their users as much as they could otherwise. (That is as good a reason for any for a website to give up.)
- samstave 14y ago
  I meant: hurting their experience and wasting their time, not harming people.
  - rhizome 14y ago
    Eh, works fine for me. EDIT: Would you say that HN is hurting people through their choice to stick with a poorly-performing language for serving its website?
    - samstave 14y ago
      Yes! I hat "unknown/expired link" - It wastes my time and frustrates me when I just leave the page up for a time then click more and get that error. I also can't stand the URLs not being human readable.
      - rhizome 14y ago
        I can dig it, but you know that CL is extremely fast, right? Even in the oft-lamented interface, it's easy to go to the right place. Everybody can figure out Craigslist.

kareemm 14y ago

> Christ, what an asshole Downvoted for ad hominem. One of the wonderful things about HN is that it provides a forum for civil discussion. If that's your style, there are lots of other places on the web that are better venues for you.

joering2 14y ago

> step over the moral grey lines of using someone else's data without their consent by claiming my service is better OK, IANAL, but isn't the content of craiglist's post owned by the author of said post, not the Craiglist itself? (sorry haven't read their TOS/TOC). Just like you own your tweets, not the twitter? Otherwise, I could keep posting copyrighted material (like books) and then suing Craiglist for copyright infringement (something Vivendi did to Youtube) since CL would claim responsibility/IP rights. I am sure that CL protect itself from acts like that pushing the blame/responsibility at users (I don't think DMCA would work in each and single case). So one could argue that this is each and every CL author right/responsibility to file copyright infringement claim with whomever harvest CL posts, and CL should, for lack of better words, "mind their own business". In other words, they lack copyrights over the content their users are creating. Sure they can remove the post if it violates TOS, but in the best scenario they could email the author "hey we stumbled upon your CL posting on XYZ website, do you want to file a claim?", but really nothing more than that, right? I know it sound bit weird, but isnt't it what AirBNB and others do: while your local/state law may forbid subletting, AirBNB hands are clean because they are in business of providing a social platform to find and post vacant apartments, not enforce or monitor if their users follow their local renting laws.

shazow 14y ago

As someone who knows Eric personally, I can vouch that he's not an asshole. In fact, that is literally how he thinks and those are his real motivations. He's not the type to come out and call someone else, like Craigslist's CEO, an asshole. In fact, he comes out saying that he admires Craigslist. That's just the way he is.

baddox 14y ago

The thing about morality is that it's much more subjective than law. If someone does something that is legal (or is presumed to be legal), on what authority do you claim their actions to be "morally grey?"