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That is merely coincidental. What matters is that it's a false and misleading narrative. These statements are false? Yup - either false, or misleading/irrele

That is merely coincidental. What matters is that it's a false and misleading narrative. These statements are false? Yup - either false, or misleading/irrelevant. Time is short so we'll just go over 2 of them for now: > In the eastern regions of Donetsk and Luhansk, many residents harbored pro-Russian sentiments due to historical, linguistic, and cultural ties to Russia. True, but irrelevant. Simply put, that wasn't was caused hostilities to happen. > Following Russia's annexation of Crimea in 2014, separatist groups in Donetsk and Luhansk, supported by local pro-Russian factions, declared independence from Ukraine. Except there were no indigenous "separatist groups" driving the action. It was entirely coordinated by Russia from the very start. In other words: a foreign invasion.

johnisgood 2y ago
> What matters is that it's a false and misleading narrative. Whether or not it aligns with whatever you say it does, does not necessarily make it right or wrong. "It is pro-Russian, therefore it is wrong" is wrong. I do not dismiss you because your views align with the pro-Ukrainian narrative, nor do I claim that you are wrong. In fact, I do not even claim that I am right. How would I really know? It is mostly hearsay.
- aguaviva 2y ago
  Whether or not it aligns with whatever you say it does It's wrong on its own merits, not on the basis of anything I say. How would I really know? It is mostly hearsay. Actually it's not. It's actually pretty easy to get a good sense of what's going on, just by reading whatever sources one does read with a reasonably critical eye. And if one is really bold, by taking the care to read diverse sources. What brought me to respond to you in this case is that you seemed be echoing talking points you had heard or read somewhere, but which were just not grounded in the basic reality of the situation. Talking to people actually from the region (actual real, regular people) can be very helpful, also. In fact to make this very simple for you: just completely forget everything you've read on the internet -- and just talk to people actually affected by the situation for a while. You'll definitely start to get a sense of what's hearsay and what's fact, very very quickly.
  - johnisgood 2y ago
    > you had heard or read somewhere I wish I could provide specific sources, but my information comes partly from Wikipedia and partly from conversations with others, most of whom hold pro-Ukrainian perspectives. There is significant sentiment against Russia and China in general, and I understand why (I am pretty much in the anti-China camp myself and I admittedly hold a bias against China). I have not even heard of "The Rubin Report" or "Tim Pool". I am somewhat familiar with Joe Rogan, but I have only watched one of his popular podcasts, the one featuring Elon Musk.
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    - aguaviva 2y ago
      As you like, and what you're telling me about your information sources is quite helpful. The additional context I've provided (in regard to the initial causes of the conflict) is intended to be helpful, also.
      - johnisgood 2y ago
        > In fact to make this very simple for you: just completely forget everything you've read on the internet -- and just talk to people actually affected by the situation for a while. You'll definitely start to get a sense of what's hearsay and what's fact, very very quickly. Where can I find people who have lived through that situation as it unfolded? Are you one of those people by any chance? Talking to people from the region may indeed provide valuable insights and perspective that might not come through in articles, reports, or podcasts, but it is important to remember that personal experiences, while genuine, are often shaped by individual perspectives, biases, and incomplete information. We know that people living through a situation may not have access to all the facts, may interpret events differently, or may even unknowingly perpetuate misinformation they have encountered. Even those directly affected by events might be influenced by propaganda, local media narratives, or their own personal hardships, which can influence their understanding. This does not mean their accounts are worthless, however. We need to cross-check details, separate fact from emotion-driven narratives as much as possible. I believe it can be valuable for me to hear your personal perspective, for example.

johnisgood 2y ago

> What matters is that it's a false and misleading narrative. Whether or not it aligns with whatever you say it does, does not necessarily make it right or wrong. "It is pro-Russian, therefore it is wrong" is wrong. I do not dismiss you because your views align with the pro-Ukrainian narrative, nor do I claim that you are wrong. In fact, I do not even claim that I am right. How would I really know? It is mostly hearsay.

aguaviva 2y ago
Whether or not it aligns with whatever you say it does It's wrong on its own merits, not on the basis of anything I say. How would I really know? It is mostly hearsay. Actually it's not. It's actually pretty easy to get a good sense of what's going on, just by reading whatever sources one does read with a reasonably critical eye. And if one is really bold, by taking the care to read diverse sources. What brought me to respond to you in this case is that you seemed be echoing talking points you had heard or read somewhere, but which were just not grounded in the basic reality of the situation. Talking to people actually from the region (actual real, regular people) can be very helpful, also. In fact to make this very simple for you: just completely forget everything you've read on the internet -- and just talk to people actually affected by the situation for a while. You'll definitely start to get a sense of what's hearsay and what's fact, very very quickly.
- johnisgood 2y ago
  > you had heard or read somewhere I wish I could provide specific sources, but my information comes partly from Wikipedia and partly from conversations with others, most of whom hold pro-Ukrainian perspectives. There is significant sentiment against Russia and China in general, and I understand why (I am pretty much in the anti-China camp myself and I admittedly hold a bias against China). I have not even heard of "The Rubin Report" or "Tim Pool". I am somewhat familiar with Joe Rogan, but I have only watched one of his popular podcasts, the one featuring Elon Musk.
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  - aguaviva 2y ago
    As you like, and what you're telling me about your information sources is quite helpful. The additional context I've provided (in regard to the initial causes of the conflict) is intended to be helpful, also.
    - johnisgood 2y ago
      > In fact to make this very simple for you: just completely forget everything you've read on the internet -- and just talk to people actually affected by the situation for a while. You'll definitely start to get a sense of what's hearsay and what's fact, very very quickly. Where can I find people who have lived through that situation as it unfolded? Are you one of those people by any chance? Talking to people from the region may indeed provide valuable insights and perspective that might not come through in articles, reports, or podcasts, but it is important to remember that personal experiences, while genuine, are often shaped by individual perspectives, biases, and incomplete information. We know that people living through a situation may not have access to all the facts, may interpret events differently, or may even unknowingly perpetuate misinformation they have encountered. Even those directly affected by events might be influenced by propaganda, local media narratives, or their own personal hardships, which can influence their understanding. This does not mean their accounts are worthless, however. We need to cross-check details, separate fact from emotion-driven narratives as much as possible. I believe it can be valuable for me to hear your personal perspective, for example.