4 ms·

No, he’s pretty much against them and makes a new excuse each time. He would claim that no vaccine ever has gone through enough testing. He also denied HIV cau

No, he’s pretty much against them and makes a new excuse each time. He would claim that no vaccine ever has gone through enough testing. He also denied HIV causes AIDS, days it’s Poppers or lifestyle. He also pushed ivermectin which studies show has no statistically significant effect on COVID. He also pushed raw milk when prior to pasteurization, milk was the cause of 25% of all communicable diseases (it’s a great medium for bacteria, it has avian flu viruses, parasites, etc). We invented pasteurization for a reason. The guy latches on to whatever statistical outlier study he can find like an ambulance chasing lawyer and is a threat to public health that has been massively improved over the last century. All of his attacks on dyes and seed oils won’t move the needle when the real reason for US health decline is too much sugars/carbs, too little exercise, and addiction to opioids and nicotine.

bitcurious 2y ago
> He also pushed raw milk when prior to pasteurization, milk was the cause of 25% of all communicable diseases (it’s a great medium for bacteria, it has avian flu viruses, parasites, etc). We invented pasteurization for a reason. Raw milk is legal to sell in most of Europe and they still have overall better health outcomes, so at the very least it’s a triviality.
- cogman10 2y ago
  Europe also has higher standards for animal husbandry and food products. In most of Europe you can sell unrefrigerated chicken eggs. Why? Because chickens in the EU are vaccinated against salmonella, so the eggs don't need to be washed (and consequently it's also safer to eat poultry in the EU). I'd be happy to sell raw milk on the market if there's a requirement that raw milk be tested for common pathogens to milk (Like listeria, for example).
cogman10 2y ago
I'll also say that this is not unique to him, it's how conspiracy minded people operate. You'll see exactly this playbook playout with flat earthers. "We can't know the earth is round because it's not been tested." or "It's actually industry captured" or "The US government prevents people from doing real tests to see if the earth is flat". You see, if you asked them "what would it take for you to abandon this theory" their honest answer is "nothing" because any counter evidence to the theory will just get wrapped up in more conspiracy. What would it take for me to abandon my belief in evolution? Evidence that explains why things appear to evolve and shows what actually happens instead. What will make me abandon my support of vaccination? Evidence that shows vaccines are more dangerous than the diseases they protect against.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- function_seven 2y ago
  I have avoided so many pointless arguments (or "debates") by leading with this question! I ask, "is there something I could say that would make you change your mind?" If the answer is no—if they can't tell me what will move them off their position—then I can say, "well let's not waste our time here, yeah?" and change the subject. It's not perfect. But with otherwise-reasonable people, it's a nifty trick.
roenxi 2y ago
> He also pushed ivermectin which studies show has no statistically significant effect on COVID. Studies showed that it had a statistically significant effect on COVID. The problem is that with hindsight it is obvious any sufficiently powerful study will show it has a statistically significant effect so the existence of that effect isn't particularly interesting evidence. There will be people who have both COVID and parasites. If you give them Ivermectin around the time they catch COVID, they will get better outcomes. Statistics will pick that up, it is a real effect. AND it has real world policy implications, there are a lot of people in the world who should immediately be given Ivermectin if they catch COVID (or, indeed, any disease). The more important political issue was when people noticed that (very real) effect without understanding the cause they were attacked rather than someone explaining what was happening. It is a good case study of evidence being misleading, but the statistical significance of that evidence is indisputable. Any study that doesn't find that effect is just underpowered - it is there. In fact as a baseline it turns out we would expect any effective drug will have a statistically significant positive effect on COVID outcomes.
- cogman10 2y ago
  > Studies showed that it had a statistically significant effect on COVID. The problem is that with hindsight it is obvious any sufficiently powerful study will show it has a statistically significant effect so the existence of that effect isn't particularly interesting evidence. Preliminary studies with small n showed a statistically significant effect. Follow up studies with larger n showed no such effect. Meta studies also concluded no effect. > Any study that doesn't find that effect is just underpowered I'm sorry, but no, in fact the opposite is true. The underpowered studies are the only ones showing an effect. [1]. What has happened with Ivermectin is the "anchoring effect". [2] Early studies showed promise which has caused people to think there is promise there. After that, grifters and conspiracy peddlers started out publishing the actual research on the benefits. [1] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9308124/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9308124/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchoring_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchoring_effect
  - roenxi 2y ago
TimTheTinker 2y ago
> the real reason for US health decline is too much sugars/carbs, too little exercise, and addiction to opioids and nicotine. I think a more fundamental root cause is that US regulation has failed to adequately keep up with the playbooks of large companies that stand to profit from various products that result in compromised health. Take a look at what's being heavily advertised/marketed. If it contains ingredients people haven't been consuming for thousands of years, I think it's suspect and should be subject to intense scrutiny. (Same goes for widely used B2B products that affect what people consume.) Unfortunately, there's too much "we only test in prod" going on, so it's hard to isolate widespread problems to a single source. That's why (in my opinion) the FDA should require clinical trials and use an allowlist-based approach to food additives. Currently it's a denylist, which amounts to testing in prod.
- cogman10 2y ago
  > If it contains ingredients people haven't been consuming for thousands of years, I think it's suspect and should be subject to intense scrutiny. There are plenty of carcinogenic ingredients that have been consumed for thousands of years. There are plenty of additives that are effectively just refined versions of chemicals commonly/naturally consumed. A prime example of a commonly consumed cancerous ingredient is alcohol. My point being that prod is already littered with bugs and the most responsible thing to do is continuing research on what is being consumed to figure out if it is or is not problematic.
  - TimTheTinker 2y ago
    I mean within reason. Of course the FDA can't and shouldn't ban alcohol. I mean things like BHT, FD&C colors, and anything else artificial that hasn't passed clinical trials.
    - cogman10 2y ago
      > I mean within reason. Of course the FDA can't and shouldn't ban alcohol. Certainly, but we are now at a sticky point where "reason" can be different things to different people. Both BHT and FD&C are far less toxic than alcohol is. BHT and FD&C have both been integrated into the food supply for decades. The question would be, what would we learn from a clinical trial that we wouldn't learn from the ongoing population study? I'm certainly not advocating for deregulation or looser standards for food safety. I certainly support the FDA being fully funded and actively investigating ingredients to ensure public health isn't being torpedoed because it turns out too much salt actually causes cancer (I don't believe it does, this is just an example). But also, I'd say that ingredients that have already been in the food supply for a generation are probably not the danger their detractors claim. At this point, we need evidence to say these additives are dangerous as the current weight of evidence (a generation eating this junk) points to them not being a primary contributor to negative health outcomes. All that said, I certainly support the idea of applying a very high level of scrutiny to new ingredients. How the current set of GRAS ingredients made it onto the market was reckless.

bitcurious 2y ago

> He also pushed raw milk when prior to pasteurization, milk was the cause of 25% of all communicable diseases (it’s a great medium for bacteria, it has avian flu viruses, parasites, etc). We invented pasteurization for a reason. Raw milk is legal to sell in most of Europe and they still have overall better health outcomes, so at the very least it’s a triviality.

cogman10 2y ago
Europe also has higher standards for animal husbandry and food products. In most of Europe you can sell unrefrigerated chicken eggs. Why? Because chickens in the EU are vaccinated against salmonella, so the eggs don't need to be washed (and consequently it's also safer to eat poultry in the EU). I'd be happy to sell raw milk on the market if there's a requirement that raw milk be tested for common pathogens to milk (Like listeria, for example).

cogman10 2y ago

I'll also say that this is not unique to him, it's how conspiracy minded people operate. You'll see exactly this playbook playout with flat earthers. "We can't know the earth is round because it's not been tested." or "It's actually industry captured" or "The US government prevents people from doing real tests to see if the earth is flat". You see, if you asked them "what would it take for you to abandon this theory" their honest answer is "nothing" because any counter evidence to the theory will just get wrapped up in more conspiracy. What would it take for me to abandon my belief in evolution? Evidence that explains why things appear to evolve and shows what actually happens instead. What will make me abandon my support of vaccination? Evidence that shows vaccines are more dangerous than the diseases they protect against.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
function_seven 2y ago
I have avoided so many pointless arguments (or "debates") by leading with this question! I ask, "is there something I could say that would make you change your mind?" If the answer is no—if they can't tell me what will move them off their position—then I can say, "well let's not waste our time here, yeah?" and change the subject. It's not perfect. But with otherwise-reasonable people, it's a nifty trick.

roenxi 2y ago

> He also pushed ivermectin which studies show has no statistically significant effect on COVID. Studies showed that it had a statistically significant effect on COVID. The problem is that with hindsight it is obvious any sufficiently powerful study will show it has a statistically significant effect so the existence of that effect isn't particularly interesting evidence. There will be people who have both COVID and parasites. If you give them Ivermectin around the time they catch COVID, they will get better outcomes. Statistics will pick that up, it is a real effect. AND it has real world policy implications, there are a lot of people in the world who should immediately be given Ivermectin if they catch COVID (or, indeed, any disease). The more important political issue was when people noticed that (very real) effect without understanding the cause they were attacked rather than someone explaining what was happening. It is a good case study of evidence being misleading, but the statistical significance of that evidence is indisputable. Any study that doesn't find that effect is just underpowered - it is there. In fact as a baseline it turns out we would expect any effective drug will have a statistically significant positive effect on COVID outcomes.

cogman10 2y ago
> Studies showed that it had a statistically significant effect on COVID. The problem is that with hindsight it is obvious any sufficiently powerful study will show it has a statistically significant effect so the existence of that effect isn't particularly interesting evidence. Preliminary studies with small n showed a statistically significant effect. Follow up studies with larger n showed no such effect. Meta studies also concluded no effect. > Any study that doesn't find that effect is just underpowered I'm sorry, but no, in fact the opposite is true. The underpowered studies are the only ones showing an effect. [1]. What has happened with Ivermectin is the "anchoring effect". [2] Early studies showed promise which has caused people to think there is promise there. After that, grifters and conspiracy peddlers started out publishing the actual research on the benefits. [1] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9308124/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9308124/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchoring_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchoring_effect
- roenxi 2y ago

TimTheTinker 2y ago

> the real reason for US health decline is too much sugars/carbs, too little exercise, and addiction to opioids and nicotine. I think a more fundamental root cause is that US regulation has failed to adequately keep up with the playbooks of large companies that stand to profit from various products that result in compromised health. Take a look at what's being heavily advertised/marketed. If it contains ingredients people haven't been consuming for thousands of years, I think it's suspect and should be subject to intense scrutiny. (Same goes for widely used B2B products that affect what people consume.) Unfortunately, there's too much "we only test in prod" going on, so it's hard to isolate widespread problems to a single source. That's why (in my opinion) the FDA should require clinical trials and use an allowlist-based approach to food additives. Currently it's a denylist, which amounts to testing in prod.

cogman10 2y ago
> If it contains ingredients people haven't been consuming for thousands of years, I think it's suspect and should be subject to intense scrutiny. There are plenty of carcinogenic ingredients that have been consumed for thousands of years. There are plenty of additives that are effectively just refined versions of chemicals commonly/naturally consumed. A prime example of a commonly consumed cancerous ingredient is alcohol. My point being that prod is already littered with bugs and the most responsible thing to do is continuing research on what is being consumed to figure out if it is or is not problematic.
- TimTheTinker 2y ago
  I mean within reason. Of course the FDA can't and shouldn't ban alcohol. I mean things like BHT, FD&C colors, and anything else artificial that hasn't passed clinical trials.
  - cogman10 2y ago
    > I mean within reason. Of course the FDA can't and shouldn't ban alcohol. Certainly, but we are now at a sticky point where "reason" can be different things to different people. Both BHT and FD&C are far less toxic than alcohol is. BHT and FD&C have both been integrated into the food supply for decades. The question would be, what would we learn from a clinical trial that we wouldn't learn from the ongoing population study? I'm certainly not advocating for deregulation or looser standards for food safety. I certainly support the FDA being fully funded and actively investigating ingredients to ensure public health isn't being torpedoed because it turns out too much salt actually causes cancer (I don't believe it does, this is just an example). But also, I'd say that ingredients that have already been in the food supply for a generation are probably not the danger their detractors claim. At this point, we need evidence to say these additives are dangerous as the current weight of evidence (a generation eating this junk) points to them not being a primary contributor to negative health outcomes. All that said, I certainly support the idea of applying a very high level of scrutiny to new ingredients. How the current set of GRAS ingredients made it onto the market was reckless.