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Russia is responsible but not alone. This war could have been prevented by not pushing Ukraine into NATO. It's THE reason for the war.

holowoodman 2y ago
Quite the opposite. Ukraine has been prevented from joining NATO by the west, especially Germany and France, for fear of angering Russia. This course of action has led to war. The proper course of action in hindsight would have been to have Ukraine join NATO asap back then.
- spookie 2y ago
  Same for Georgia. But here we are.
Terr_ 2y ago
Compare: "The serial-killer is responsible but not alone, this second stabbing could have been prevented by not trying to protect yourself from being stabbed again by the same serial-killer!" That may be true in the most narrow and mechanical sense, but the way it presents blame is very wrong.
fsloth 2y ago
That’s bullshit. I’m sorry, but I’m tired of apologists falling to Russian state lies. Falling over to Russian lies is not independent thinking. The first rule of kremnology is that Russia always lies without a shame, as lies are usefull and they incur zero cost on the liar. Russia invaded because they felt Ukraine was showing a bad example of slavic people becoming a democracy. Also Russia has always had an affinity towards Ukrainian genocide. See Holodomor. Also there is the narrative of lost colonial honor, Crimea, Catherine the great, and other idiotic pseudo-historical ramblings of a demented autocratic propagnada.
- Terr_ 2y ago
  > Also there is the narrative of lost colonial honor, Useful word: Revanchism [0], for people who want to conquer places they claim they once-owned. [0] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/revanchist https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/revanchist
  - selimthegrim 2y ago
    Also irredentism.
- techbrovanguard 2y ago
  > The first rule of kremnology is that Russia always lies without a shame, as lies are usefull and they incur zero cost on the liar. you’re describing international relations, none of this is specific to russia. people are indoctrinated from birth into nationalist propaganda. when these mouthpieces speak they aren’t lying, but it’s not the truth.
  - watwut 2y ago
    The amount of lying coming from Russia is the next level tho.
  - fsloth 2y ago
    No, the use of lying in Russian dialogue is quite next level. It’s way beyond what is expected in western international policy. It’s the ”i know they are lying, they know i know, and yet they lie”. One of the points is not to convince but to confuse.
threeseed 2y ago
So then the resolution to this war is simple: Russia returns Crimea, Donbass etc and Ukraine promises not to join NATO. Strange that Putin hasn't proposed such a deal.
- eptcyka 2y ago
  Not joining NATO is just a way of deferring the genocide. A regional power has no chance to stand against a global superpower on its own. If not NATO, then a different coalition.
  - dralley 2y ago
    I understand what you mean but Russia is not a global superpower. They are not the USSR. Acting and speaking as though they are is part of how we got into this mess, the US and Europe didn't show any real backbone during the decade following the initial 2014 invasion, or during the Syrian crisis before that, or the 2008 invasion of Georgia before that.
    - eptcyka 2y ago
      Fair, but even if they are not a global superpower, they are a tier above most of their bordering countries. 2014 was a direct result of Germany being dependent on Russian gas. I wouldn’t argue that EU and the US did not screw up in 20{08,14} though. We did. Massively. We did underestimate Putins long game - had we known how far he wants to go, and I’d argue most post soviet countries knew, this would’ve been nipped in the bud.
      - InDubioProRubio 2y ago
        Saudi Arabia with snow instead of sand
    - Terr_ 2y ago
      > They are not the USSR. One strand of BS I've seen is "Ukraine now is a different country than the one we promised never to invade." If that's really how it works, Russia should be ejected from the United Nations and apologize for fraudulently casting votes in the UN Security Council, because it's a different country than the USSR.
fatbird 2y ago
Ukraine wasn't a candidate for NATO membership in 2014 or 2022, and this was agreed to in all major treaties/agreements with Russia. It's still not a candidate, and can't be while it's actively engaged in war. NATO membership has never had anything to do with it. Note how Finland has joined NATO since 2022, and faces no repercussions from Russia, despite a third of their land-based nuclear missiles within 400 km of the Finnish border.
- loandbehold 2y ago
  ChatGPT disagrees with you: Was Ukraine candidate for NATO? Yes, Ukraine has been a candidate for NATO membership. In 2008, during the Bucharest Summit, NATO members agreed that Ukraine would eventually become a member of the alliance. However, no formal invitation was extended at that time. COMMONS LIBRARY In 2010, under President Viktor Yanukovych, Ukraine adopted a non-aligned status, halting its pursuit of NATO membership. This policy shifted after the 2014 annexation of Crimea by Russia, leading Ukraine to renew its aspirations for NATO integration. In 2019, Ukraine amended its constitution to enshrine the goal of joining NATO. NATO In September 2022, following Russia's annexation of parts of southeastern Ukraine, President Volodymyr Zelenskyy announced that Ukraine had applied for NATO membership under an accelerated procedure. WIKIPEDIA As of November 2024, Ukraine remains a NATO partner country and has not yet achieved full membership.
  - fatbird 2y ago
    Nothing ChatGPT said disagrees what I wrote. Between 2010 and later 2022 (i.e., not in 2014 or in February 2022) Ukraine was officially not pursuing membership, and France, Germany and the US were all unofficially making it clear that NATO membership was not being pursued and would not be offered. Ukraine applied for NATO membership after Russia's invasion. It cannot therefore be a cause of Russia's invasion. At the time Russia sponsored and supported internal revolt in Crimea and Donbass, it was 2014 and Ukraine was officially and unofficially not in or applying to NATO--so how can that be the cause of Russian intervention then? Thank you, though, for using ChatGPT to support my contention that NATO membership had nothing to do with Russia's invasion.
hackandthink 2y ago
Who Caused the Ukraine War? https://mearsheimer.substack.com/p/who-caused-the-ukraine-war?utm_source=publication-search https://mearsheimer.substack.com/p/who-caused-the-ukraine-wa...
- InDubioProRubio 2y ago
  Another asset
- dralley 2y ago
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVmmASrAL-Q&t=30m50s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVmmASrAL-Q&t=30m50s
  - hackandthink 2y ago
    "Shut Up About NATO Expansion" is a fun video, well made. But Mearsheimer's arguments are convincing. We may find it ridiculous to be afraid of NATO or the USA. Others do not.
    - dralley 2y ago
      It's not convincing. It's a man wrapped up in defending a worldview he's held for 5 decades against real world experiences that directly contradict it. Putin's actions do not line up with this portrait of him as a hyper-rational long-term strategist acting on the interests of the Russian state. They line up very well with what you would expect from an aging, deeply conspiratorial cold warrior with widely publicized nationalist beliefs [0], a desire to have a legacy that compares against the likes of Peter the Great [1], and the type of delusional thinking that is the near-inevitable result of not having anyone that is willing (due to brownnosing) or able (due to corruption) to tell you hard truths [2]. Even when someone like Tucker Carlson sits down with Putin and practically tees him up to blame the war on US, he goes on ridiculous historical tangents to try to justify why Ukraine isn't real, as opposed to saying anything related to NATO. And that's not a fluke. Russian internal narratives are vastly more focused on nationalism than on anything resembling "NATO made us do this". You also just have to look at the assassinations carried out on NATO soil - including using chemical and radiological weapons - blowing up Czech ammunition depots, etc. Years and years of unilateral kinetic escalation directly against the west. And then no response whatsoever when Finland and Sweden joined NATO. [0] https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/21/world/europe/putin-ukraine.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/21/world/europe/putin-ukrain... [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jun/10/putin-compares-himself-to-peter-the-great-in-quest-to-take-back-russian-lands https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jun/10/putin-compares... [2] There's far too many instances of this to even count.
watwut 2y ago
No, Ukraine in NATO would prevent the war. The war happened, because Russia wants territory.
dragonwriter 2y ago
> Russia is responsible but not alone. This war could have been prevented by not pushing Ukraine into NATO The war is what caused Ukraine to restart its previously-repudiated attempts to join NATO, so this isn’t just wrong but entirely backwards.

holowoodman 2y ago

Quite the opposite. Ukraine has been prevented from joining NATO by the west, especially Germany and France, for fear of angering Russia. This course of action has led to war. The proper course of action in hindsight would have been to have Ukraine join NATO asap back then.

spookie 2y ago
Same for Georgia. But here we are.

Terr_ 2y ago

Compare: "The serial-killer is responsible but not alone, this second stabbing could have been prevented by not trying to protect yourself from being stabbed again by the same serial-killer!" That may be true in the most narrow and mechanical sense, but the way it presents blame is very wrong.

fsloth 2y ago

That’s bullshit. I’m sorry, but I’m tired of apologists falling to Russian state lies. Falling over to Russian lies is not independent thinking. The first rule of kremnology is that Russia always lies without a shame, as lies are usefull and they incur zero cost on the liar. Russia invaded because they felt Ukraine was showing a bad example of slavic people becoming a democracy. Also Russia has always had an affinity towards Ukrainian genocide. See Holodomor. Also there is the narrative of lost colonial honor, Crimea, Catherine the great, and other idiotic pseudo-historical ramblings of a demented autocratic propagnada.

Terr_ 2y ago
> Also there is the narrative of lost colonial honor, Useful word: Revanchism [0], for people who want to conquer places they claim they once-owned. [0] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/revanchist https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/revanchist
- selimthegrim 2y ago
  Also irredentism.
techbrovanguard 2y ago
> The first rule of kremnology is that Russia always lies without a shame, as lies are usefull and they incur zero cost on the liar. you’re describing international relations, none of this is specific to russia. people are indoctrinated from birth into nationalist propaganda. when these mouthpieces speak they aren’t lying, but it’s not the truth.
- watwut 2y ago
  The amount of lying coming from Russia is the next level tho.
- fsloth 2y ago
  No, the use of lying in Russian dialogue is quite next level. It’s way beyond what is expected in western international policy. It’s the ”i know they are lying, they know i know, and yet they lie”. One of the points is not to convince but to confuse.

threeseed 2y ago

So then the resolution to this war is simple: Russia returns Crimea, Donbass etc and Ukraine promises not to join NATO. Strange that Putin hasn't proposed such a deal.

eptcyka 2y ago
Not joining NATO is just a way of deferring the genocide. A regional power has no chance to stand against a global superpower on its own. If not NATO, then a different coalition.
- dralley 2y ago
  I understand what you mean but Russia is not a global superpower. They are not the USSR. Acting and speaking as though they are is part of how we got into this mess, the US and Europe didn't show any real backbone during the decade following the initial 2014 invasion, or during the Syrian crisis before that, or the 2008 invasion of Georgia before that.
  - eptcyka 2y ago
    Fair, but even if they are not a global superpower, they are a tier above most of their bordering countries. 2014 was a direct result of Germany being dependent on Russian gas. I wouldn’t argue that EU and the US did not screw up in 20{08,14} though. We did. Massively. We did underestimate Putins long game - had we known how far he wants to go, and I’d argue most post soviet countries knew, this would’ve been nipped in the bud.
    - InDubioProRubio 2y ago
      Saudi Arabia with snow instead of sand
  - Terr_ 2y ago
    > They are not the USSR. One strand of BS I've seen is "Ukraine now is a different country than the one we promised never to invade." If that's really how it works, Russia should be ejected from the United Nations and apologize for fraudulently casting votes in the UN Security Council, because it's a different country than the USSR.

fatbird 2y ago

Ukraine wasn't a candidate for NATO membership in 2014 or 2022, and this was agreed to in all major treaties/agreements with Russia. It's still not a candidate, and can't be while it's actively engaged in war. NATO membership has never had anything to do with it. Note how Finland has joined NATO since 2022, and faces no repercussions from Russia, despite a third of their land-based nuclear missiles within 400 km of the Finnish border.

loandbehold 2y ago
ChatGPT disagrees with you: Was Ukraine candidate for NATO? Yes, Ukraine has been a candidate for NATO membership. In 2008, during the Bucharest Summit, NATO members agreed that Ukraine would eventually become a member of the alliance. However, no formal invitation was extended at that time. COMMONS LIBRARY In 2010, under President Viktor Yanukovych, Ukraine adopted a non-aligned status, halting its pursuit of NATO membership. This policy shifted after the 2014 annexation of Crimea by Russia, leading Ukraine to renew its aspirations for NATO integration. In 2019, Ukraine amended its constitution to enshrine the goal of joining NATO. NATO In September 2022, following Russia's annexation of parts of southeastern Ukraine, President Volodymyr Zelenskyy announced that Ukraine had applied for NATO membership under an accelerated procedure. WIKIPEDIA As of November 2024, Ukraine remains a NATO partner country and has not yet achieved full membership.
- fatbird 2y ago
  Nothing ChatGPT said disagrees what I wrote. Between 2010 and later 2022 (i.e., not in 2014 or in February 2022) Ukraine was officially not pursuing membership, and France, Germany and the US were all unofficially making it clear that NATO membership was not being pursued and would not be offered. Ukraine applied for NATO membership after Russia's invasion. It cannot therefore be a cause of Russia's invasion. At the time Russia sponsored and supported internal revolt in Crimea and Donbass, it was 2014 and Ukraine was officially and unofficially not in or applying to NATO--so how can that be the cause of Russian intervention then? Thank you, though, for using ChatGPT to support my contention that NATO membership had nothing to do with Russia's invasion.

hackandthink 2y ago

Who Caused the Ukraine War? https://mearsheimer.substack.com/p/who-caused-the-ukraine-war?utm_source=publication-search https://mearsheimer.substack.com/p/who-caused-the-ukraine-wa...

InDubioProRubio 2y ago
Another asset
dralley 2y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVmmASrAL-Q&t=30m50s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVmmASrAL-Q&t=30m50s
- hackandthink 2y ago
  "Shut Up About NATO Expansion" is a fun video, well made. But Mearsheimer's arguments are convincing. We may find it ridiculous to be afraid of NATO or the USA. Others do not.
  - dralley 2y ago
    It's not convincing. It's a man wrapped up in defending a worldview he's held for 5 decades against real world experiences that directly contradict it. Putin's actions do not line up with this portrait of him as a hyper-rational long-term strategist acting on the interests of the Russian state. They line up very well with what you would expect from an aging, deeply conspiratorial cold warrior with widely publicized nationalist beliefs [0], a desire to have a legacy that compares against the likes of Peter the Great [1], and the type of delusional thinking that is the near-inevitable result of not having anyone that is willing (due to brownnosing) or able (due to corruption) to tell you hard truths [2]. Even when someone like Tucker Carlson sits down with Putin and practically tees him up to blame the war on US, he goes on ridiculous historical tangents to try to justify why Ukraine isn't real, as opposed to saying anything related to NATO. And that's not a fluke. Russian internal narratives are vastly more focused on nationalism than on anything resembling "NATO made us do this". You also just have to look at the assassinations carried out on NATO soil - including using chemical and radiological weapons - blowing up Czech ammunition depots, etc. Years and years of unilateral kinetic escalation directly against the west. And then no response whatsoever when Finland and Sweden joined NATO. [0] https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/21/world/europe/putin-ukraine.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/21/world/europe/putin-ukrain... [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jun/10/putin-compares-himself-to-peter-the-great-in-quest-to-take-back-russian-lands https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jun/10/putin-compares... [2] There's far too many instances of this to even count.

watwut 2y ago

No, Ukraine in NATO would prevent the war. The war happened, because Russia wants territory.

dragonwriter 2y ago

> Russia is responsible but not alone. This war could have been prevented by not pushing Ukraine into NATO The war is what caused Ukraine to restart its previously-repudiated attempts to join NATO, so this isn’t just wrong but entirely backwards.