4 ms·

On a personal level, linguistic imperialism. For all the rhetoric spewed regarding the impacts of colonialism and cultural imperialism and fervent calls to deco

by ryandv 2y ago

On a personal level, linguistic imperialism. For all the rhetoric spewed regarding the impacts of colonialism and cultural imperialism and fervent calls to decolonize various aspects of society, the whites spewing that very same rhetoric have found a way to launder their own modern brand of imperialism into gender diversity and inclusivity by inventing and then imposing new language on that of other ethnic minorities: "Filipinx." This word shows a shocking ignorance of basic facts of Tagalog that it can't be construed in any way other than racist: there is no letter "x" in Tagalog, and the grammar of the language is already genderless. This point becomes readily apparent if you are conversing with a native Tagalog speaker who uses English as a second language, as they will readily confuse the pronouns "he" and "she" in everyday speech, the concept of gendered pronouns being, quite literally, foreign to them. Is this transphobic bigotry? The Philippines has already undergone multiple rounds of colonization over centuries, leading to the slow-motion eradication of their native language as Spanish and especially English have overtaken it to the point where many Filipinos cannot even speak pure Tagalog any more [0]. Hasn't the western white already colonized the Philippines enough? First it was, "your pagan religion is immoral and barbaric; here, read this Bible." Now, it's, "your transphobic language is bigoted and uninclusive; here, take these pronouns." How about obeying Starfleet's Prime Directive by leaving other cultures the fuck alone? If you don't find this top-down imposition and control of language disturbing, I suggest you review your Orwell. On a more abstract level, "the group's" intolerance of dissenting opinion and academic inquiry, especially when such inquiry shows its positions to be internally contradictory. Take for instance Rebecca Tuvel's paper In Defense of Transracialism, published in Hypatia: A Journal of Feminist Philosophy, which argues that "considerations that support transgenderism seem to apply equally to transracialism." [1] Rather than judge this assertion on its merits and attempt to defeat it rationally, the community demanded the paper be retracted, the author was pilloried for her hateful language and dangerous ideas, and there were multiple departures from Hypatia's editorial team. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYLFoUTJuGU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYLFoUTJuGU [1] https://sci-hub.se/10.1111/hypa.12327 https://sci-hub.se/10.1111/hypa.12327

giraffe_lady 2y ago
I don't see the connection between tagalog and trans people sorry.
aint_that_so 2y ago
I got banned from a leftist Discord that I'd spent years on discussing all sorts of topics, just because I dared to question some of the standard left-wing stances on trans issues. I'd said something like, I don't think claiming an identity is enough, there has to be some sort of dysphoria. And then followed up with another comment like, if they want to keep the cock intact, then they're not actually trans women, as a genuine trans woman would want rid of it even if she couldn't afford the surgery. This was enough to get me called bigoted and transphobic, and then permanently banned with no recourse, which surprised me because I'd disagreed with people there on the details of a few other topics in the past. Yet somehow this was too much. It still baffles me how this is the one of the few issues that gets people on the left so riled up that they can't even bear to hear any dissent.
- sunshowers 2y ago
  What is your expertise in the field?
  - aint_that_so 2y ago
    About the same as anyone else on that Discord.
    - sunshowers 2y ago
      Well, in that case I guess they were lucky that their views were closer to reality than yours. I know plenty of trans women who don't wish to have extensive bottom surgery. Given that you don't have expertise in the field and have basically invented your beliefs from whole cloth, I think you should revise them accordingly and take it as a learning experience about the value of study.
      - aint_that_so 2y ago
        I did take the time to understand more after that, like learning that many trans people broadly agreed with the points I'd made but are now denounced as "truscum" by those who believe that gender identity and not gender dysphoria is fundamental to being trans. Note also that these were the standard leftie views on trans back in the 1990s, which is when I first heard about it. My beliefs weren't invented from whole cloth as you state. At the time the common understanding was that gender dysphoria is such a debilitating medical condition that accommodating those rare individuals afflicted by this should be done to help them deal with it better. Sort of like how disabled people are provided ramps for access - it was the right thing to do to help a marginalized group. Anyway my point was more about intolerance of dissenting views on this topic in particular. Being permanently banned from that Discord was an unpleasant surprise when I was just expressing a viewpoint that was previously how most on the left understood the issue. On the plus side it did help me understand the perspectives on the other side better. I'd previously considered "terfs" to be nothing more than vicious bigots, but once I understood that the trans umbrella had been expanded to include those without gender dysphoria, including men that back in the day would have just been considered common transvestites and not transsexual at all, some of their arguments began to make sense. Now I'm more middle-ground on the issue, which isn't a bad place to be. This also inspired me rethink other political stances that I had adopted without analyzing them too deeply. So overall I suppose being kicked out of this community was a good thing as it broadened my mind. It also helped me see first hand how political echo chambers are constructed.
sunshowers 2y ago
I believe both "Latinx" and "Filipinx" were introduced by queer people of the respective ethnicities, not white Anglos. Basically every culture on earth has deep seated views on gender that don't match reality, and a strong reactionary response when that's interrogated from within the community. Philosophy as a field has very little to contribute to basic object-level facts -- this is the whole reason science ("natural philosophy") split from traditional philosophy back in the early Renaissance. This isn't something you can reason out within your brain, this is entirely evidence-driven. There is a tremendous amount of evidence for transgender people and next to none for "transracialism".
- ryandv 2y ago
  > I believe both "Latinx" and "Filipinx" were introduced by queer people of the respective ethnicities, not white Anglos. This kind of cultural ignorance is highly insensitive. I would suggest that you refrain from making assertions, without corroborating evidence, about other cultures and matters that you have no experience with. My lived experience, as a Pinoy, speaking with other Pinoys, both here in the west and in the Philippines, is that very few people, especially amongst the older generations, have ever heard of Filipinx; of those who have, nobody respects the term as valid, and indeed many regard it as colonialist. From an opinion piece in The Philippines' newspaper of record, the centre-left [0] Philippine Daily Inquirer [1]: The practice of gender-neutralizing all gendered words began in the 1960s with the purpose of supporting gender equality. Though we may see Filipinx as something to be celebrated for its obvious acknowledgment of gender neutrality borrowed from the Latinx and Chicanx communities in the United States, we must resist such adverse essentializing of our identity. If we use Filipinx here in the Philippines, many people would probably react in shock at such a strange word, and would immediately resist such naming. Absurd as it may seem, these Filipino-American digital natives prove once again the naming power of the American establishment to co-opt identities in their own sense. Haven’t we learned from history? The Philippine revolutions, the massacres, the campaigns for sovereignty, our fight to wield the Philippine flag and sing the national anthem? To legitimize Filipinx as gender-neutral is to efface and silence Filipino as gender-neutral. What could be more gender-neutral than the Philippine languages themselves spoken by our fellow Filipinos? We, the Filipino virtual community, have to resist this Western hype and instead empower our languages in the Philippines. We are all Filipinos. Our concerns are deeply rooted in our social realities than in the post-postmodern neutralized revision implied by Filipinx. The media is replete [2] with [3] other [4] examples of how poorly this term is received overseas, despite its adoption by a small subset of the western Filipino diaspora. Take this interview conducted by VICE with "Nanette Caspillo, a former University of the Philippines professor of European languages" [2]: While it is intended to promote diversity, the word instead sparked arguments about identity, colonialism, and the power of language. Right now, most people in the Philippines do not seem to recognize, understand, relate to, or assert Filipinx as their identity. Therefore, “the word [‘Filipinx’] does not naturally evoke a meaning that reflects an entity in reality,” [...] “Filipinx has not reached collective consciousness,” Caspillo said, perhaps because fewer people have heard of and relate to the new term. > This isn't something you can reason out within your brain, this is entirely evidence-driven. This just sounds like a justification for tolerating double standards and self-contradiction, to the tune of "rules for thee, and not for me." > There is a tremendous amount of evidence for transgender people and next to none for "transracialism". Beyond the question of Rachel Dolezal's transracial identity as discussed in Tuvel's paper, there is also the recent Canadian headline regarding a self-identifying Indigenous group that has received tens of millions in federal cash [5]. Is this group Inuit, or is it not? Who decides? Would you, in their words, "want to take food out of the mouths of our people? Why would you want to hurt our people and our communities?” All because you refuse to respect their self-identification and long-documented history as an Indigenous people? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine_Daily_Inquirer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine_Daily_Inquirer [1] https://opinion.inquirer.net/133571/filipino-or-filipinx https://opinion.inquirer.net/133571/filipino-or-filipinx [2] https://www.vice.com/en/article/filipino-vs-filipinx-debate-language-philippines-culture-identity/ https://www.vice.com/en/article/filipino-vs-filipinx-debate-... [3] https://www.esquiremag.ph/long-reads/features/filipinos-filipino-americans-filams-filipinx-diaspora-a2819-20220813-lfrm2 https://www.esquiremag.ph/long-reads/features/filipinos-fili... [4] https://tribune.net.ph/2022/08/08/why-filipinx-is-unacceptable https://tribune.net.ph/2022/08/08/why-filipinx-is-unacceptab... [5] https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-self-identifying-indigenous-group-got-74-million-in-federal-cash-inuit/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-self-identify...

by ryandv 2y ago

giraffe_lady 2y ago

I don't see the connection between tagalog and trans people sorry.

aint_that_so 2y ago

I got banned from a leftist Discord that I'd spent years on discussing all sorts of topics, just because I dared to question some of the standard left-wing stances on trans issues. I'd said something like, I don't think claiming an identity is enough, there has to be some sort of dysphoria. And then followed up with another comment like, if they want to keep the cock intact, then they're not actually trans women, as a genuine trans woman would want rid of it even if she couldn't afford the surgery. This was enough to get me called bigoted and transphobic, and then permanently banned with no recourse, which surprised me because I'd disagreed with people there on the details of a few other topics in the past. Yet somehow this was too much. It still baffles me how this is the one of the few issues that gets people on the left so riled up that they can't even bear to hear any dissent.

sunshowers 2y ago
What is your expertise in the field?
- aint_that_so 2y ago
  About the same as anyone else on that Discord.
  - sunshowers 2y ago
    Well, in that case I guess they were lucky that their views were closer to reality than yours. I know plenty of trans women who don't wish to have extensive bottom surgery. Given that you don't have expertise in the field and have basically invented your beliefs from whole cloth, I think you should revise them accordingly and take it as a learning experience about the value of study.
    - aint_that_so 2y ago
      I did take the time to understand more after that, like learning that many trans people broadly agreed with the points I'd made but are now denounced as "truscum" by those who believe that gender identity and not gender dysphoria is fundamental to being trans. Note also that these were the standard leftie views on trans back in the 1990s, which is when I first heard about it. My beliefs weren't invented from whole cloth as you state. At the time the common understanding was that gender dysphoria is such a debilitating medical condition that accommodating those rare individuals afflicted by this should be done to help them deal with it better. Sort of like how disabled people are provided ramps for access - it was the right thing to do to help a marginalized group. Anyway my point was more about intolerance of dissenting views on this topic in particular. Being permanently banned from that Discord was an unpleasant surprise when I was just expressing a viewpoint that was previously how most on the left understood the issue. On the plus side it did help me understand the perspectives on the other side better. I'd previously considered "terfs" to be nothing more than vicious bigots, but once I understood that the trans umbrella had been expanded to include those without gender dysphoria, including men that back in the day would have just been considered common transvestites and not transsexual at all, some of their arguments began to make sense. Now I'm more middle-ground on the issue, which isn't a bad place to be. This also inspired me rethink other political stances that I had adopted without analyzing them too deeply. So overall I suppose being kicked out of this community was a good thing as it broadened my mind. It also helped me see first hand how political echo chambers are constructed.

sunshowers 2y ago

I believe both "Latinx" and "Filipinx" were introduced by queer people of the respective ethnicities, not white Anglos. Basically every culture on earth has deep seated views on gender that don't match reality, and a strong reactionary response when that's interrogated from within the community. Philosophy as a field has very little to contribute to basic object-level facts -- this is the whole reason science ("natural philosophy") split from traditional philosophy back in the early Renaissance. This isn't something you can reason out within your brain, this is entirely evidence-driven. There is a tremendous amount of evidence for transgender people and next to none for "transracialism".

ryandv 2y ago
> I believe both "Latinx" and "Filipinx" were introduced by queer people of the respective ethnicities, not white Anglos. This kind of cultural ignorance is highly insensitive. I would suggest that you refrain from making assertions, without corroborating evidence, about other cultures and matters that you have no experience with. My lived experience, as a Pinoy, speaking with other Pinoys, both here in the west and in the Philippines, is that very few people, especially amongst the older generations, have ever heard of Filipinx; of those who have, nobody respects the term as valid, and indeed many regard it as colonialist. From an opinion piece in The Philippines' newspaper of record, the centre-left [0] Philippine Daily Inquirer [1]: The practice of gender-neutralizing all gendered words began in the 1960s with the purpose of supporting gender equality. Though we may see Filipinx as something to be celebrated for its obvious acknowledgment of gender neutrality borrowed from the Latinx and Chicanx communities in the United States, we must resist such adverse essentializing of our identity. If we use Filipinx here in the Philippines, many people would probably react in shock at such a strange word, and would immediately resist such naming. Absurd as it may seem, these Filipino-American digital natives prove once again the naming power of the American establishment to co-opt identities in their own sense. Haven’t we learned from history? The Philippine revolutions, the massacres, the campaigns for sovereignty, our fight to wield the Philippine flag and sing the national anthem? To legitimize Filipinx as gender-neutral is to efface and silence Filipino as gender-neutral. What could be more gender-neutral than the Philippine languages themselves spoken by our fellow Filipinos? We, the Filipino virtual community, have to resist this Western hype and instead empower our languages in the Philippines. We are all Filipinos. Our concerns are deeply rooted in our social realities than in the post-postmodern neutralized revision implied by Filipinx. The media is replete [2] with [3] other [4] examples of how poorly this term is received overseas, despite its adoption by a small subset of the western Filipino diaspora. Take this interview conducted by VICE with "Nanette Caspillo, a former University of the Philippines professor of European languages" [2]: While it is intended to promote diversity, the word instead sparked arguments about identity, colonialism, and the power of language. Right now, most people in the Philippines do not seem to recognize, understand, relate to, or assert Filipinx as their identity. Therefore, “the word [‘Filipinx’] does not naturally evoke a meaning that reflects an entity in reality,” [...] “Filipinx has not reached collective consciousness,” Caspillo said, perhaps because fewer people have heard of and relate to the new term. > This isn't something you can reason out within your brain, this is entirely evidence-driven. This just sounds like a justification for tolerating double standards and self-contradiction, to the tune of "rules for thee, and not for me." > There is a tremendous amount of evidence for transgender people and next to none for "transracialism". Beyond the question of Rachel Dolezal's transracial identity as discussed in Tuvel's paper, there is also the recent Canadian headline regarding a self-identifying Indigenous group that has received tens of millions in federal cash [5]. Is this group Inuit, or is it not? Who decides? Would you, in their words, "want to take food out of the mouths of our people? Why would you want to hurt our people and our communities?” All because you refuse to respect their self-identification and long-documented history as an Indigenous people? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine_Daily_Inquirer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine_Daily_Inquirer [1] https://opinion.inquirer.net/133571/filipino-or-filipinx https://opinion.inquirer.net/133571/filipino-or-filipinx [2] https://www.vice.com/en/article/filipino-vs-filipinx-debate-language-philippines-culture-identity/ https://www.vice.com/en/article/filipino-vs-filipinx-debate-... [3] https://www.esquiremag.ph/long-reads/features/filipinos-filipino-americans-filams-filipinx-diaspora-a2819-20220813-lfrm2 https://www.esquiremag.ph/long-reads/features/filipinos-fili... [4] https://tribune.net.ph/2022/08/08/why-filipinx-is-unacceptable https://tribune.net.ph/2022/08/08/why-filipinx-is-unacceptab... [5] https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-self-identifying-indigenous-group-got-74-million-in-federal-cash-inuit/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-self-identify...