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I see a few problems with this declaration. 1. There’s no hard commitment to NATO budget targets. Until Germany spends at least 2% for a decade on rebuilding i

I see a few problems with this declaration. 1. There’s no hard commitment to NATO budget targets. Until Germany spends at least 2% for a decade on rebuilding it’s military, those are just words. Next coalition may change it any time. 2. There’s zero chance there will be a peace anywhere close to what’s desired by Ukraine or that Ukraine will be the sole party to negotiations. NATO has already lost this war because it was too slow, indecisive and weak. Again empty words and everyone understands that. 3. EU is nowhere close in military integration and economic flexibility to match the threat, even with that declaration. For example I cannot imagine IG Metall agreeing to work in three shifts to boost production of shells or drones. What is really necessary is to admit that USA cannot guarantee anyone anything, this war is lost and partitioning of Ukraine now will save lives. EU has to build its own union army with nuclear deterrence, fast-track admission of the remaining part of Ukraine and put there its own military (maybe in violation of the peace treaty). Or accept that we have a bigger goal than democracy in Eastern Europe and work with Putin on climate change and global security, hoping that he will die soon anyway and things will get easier if next president won’t have KGB background.

martin_a 2y ago
> this war is lost and partitioning of Ukraine now will save lives Ah, classic talking point. Just bend over when your country gets attacked by Russia and hope for the best... Yeah, maybe that does not work so well.
- MrMcCall 2y ago
  Brother, many people just choose to forget the history of WWI and WWII and all that ensued. To many in the world, a few more raped Ukrainians are just the cost of doing business in their status quo. Every single person on Earth with means is choosing sides between good and evil. To those who have any spiritual development, it is obvious who is on which side. The others weave their illogic to continue justifying how they lie to themselves, no matter what it costs to others.
  - mdp2021 2y ago
    Unfortunately, reality is that very many just think of survival. (As I could sadly witness.)
- ivan_gammel 2y ago
  This argument is nonsensical whataboutism. My country is Germany and it is part of NATO, just like Poland which Russia will need to cross. We have Article 5, but Ukraine does not enjoy similar protection. NATO can probably defend itself. There’s no reason to think that Ukraine can do it for a long time at the moment. They are already overpowered and slowly losing positions. Every month of war results in tens of thousands of casualties on both sides. Hoping for the miracle will just defer the inevitable.
  - mopsi 2y ago
    How many casualties per month will the peace you are advocating bring? The parts of Ukraine that have fallen under Russian control have seen almost their entire male population wiped out by forcible conscription for fighting against Ukraine. Should Ukraine fall in its entirety, I have little doubt Russia will decimate the population of currently free parts of Ukraine by using them as cannon fodder in further attacks westwards against Poland.
    - ivan_gammel 2y ago
      The idea about further attacks to the West has no basis in history or reality. There’s zero indication that this may happen: it’s far beyond current Russian capabilities, just like NATO does not have capabilities to start and win an offensive war against Russia. Both threats are no more than convenient lies for either party. Ukraine is not going to fall in its entirety if there will be peace talks recognizing situation on the ground, but I bet you haven’t seen the map of Europe if you think Ukraine is standing between Russia and NATO. If Russia wanted to attack, there’s much more convenient and more strategically important route via Belarus (Russian ally) and Baltics. So no, Ukraine is not fighting for us. They fight for a certain vision of ethnic state that was not even shared by majority of its population before 2014. It’s not bad, they have the right and they deserve it, but it’s a very different narrative. Yes, a few people on annexed regions are going to suffer, that will be mostly active political opposition. How many of them will die? You can check statistics on Russian political prisoners. If the peace treaty is signed, there will be no more cannon fodder on either side. Prisoners? Yes. Not a lot.
lpcvoid 2y ago
>3. EU is nowhere close in military integration and economic flexibility to match the threat, even with that declaration. For example I cannot imagine IG Metall agreeing to work in three shifts to boost production of shells or drones. Why not? They already did in the past for car production, for example. If liberty is on the line, and the russian threat becomes tangible to the common people, then there will be more than enough factory workers willing to work overtime, I very much think so.
- ivan_gammel 2y ago
  Well, yes, if Russian armies will be approaching Oder, they will do it. I don’t feel the vibes of urgency of situation among Germans right now. On the contrary, a lot of hesitation. They will wake up when it’s too late.
rasz 2y ago
>partitioning of Ukraine now will save lives Will it? russia will kill and torture even more of war prisoners, and conscript remaining Ukrainian children to fight in Moldova/Baltics/Poland in 5 years https://edition.cnn.com/2024/03/14/europe/ukrainian-teenagers-russian-soldiers-cmd-intl/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2024/03/14/europe/ukrainian-teenager...

martin_a 2y ago

> this war is lost and partitioning of Ukraine now will save lives Ah, classic talking point. Just bend over when your country gets attacked by Russia and hope for the best... Yeah, maybe that does not work so well.

MrMcCall 2y ago
Brother, many people just choose to forget the history of WWI and WWII and all that ensued. To many in the world, a few more raped Ukrainians are just the cost of doing business in their status quo. Every single person on Earth with means is choosing sides between good and evil. To those who have any spiritual development, it is obvious who is on which side. The others weave their illogic to continue justifying how they lie to themselves, no matter what it costs to others.
- mdp2021 2y ago
  Unfortunately, reality is that very many just think of survival. (As I could sadly witness.)
ivan_gammel 2y ago
This argument is nonsensical whataboutism. My country is Germany and it is part of NATO, just like Poland which Russia will need to cross. We have Article 5, but Ukraine does not enjoy similar protection. NATO can probably defend itself. There’s no reason to think that Ukraine can do it for a long time at the moment. They are already overpowered and slowly losing positions. Every month of war results in tens of thousands of casualties on both sides. Hoping for the miracle will just defer the inevitable.
- mopsi 2y ago
  How many casualties per month will the peace you are advocating bring? The parts of Ukraine that have fallen under Russian control have seen almost their entire male population wiped out by forcible conscription for fighting against Ukraine. Should Ukraine fall in its entirety, I have little doubt Russia will decimate the population of currently free parts of Ukraine by using them as cannon fodder in further attacks westwards against Poland.
  - ivan_gammel 2y ago
    The idea about further attacks to the West has no basis in history or reality. There’s zero indication that this may happen: it’s far beyond current Russian capabilities, just like NATO does not have capabilities to start and win an offensive war against Russia. Both threats are no more than convenient lies for either party. Ukraine is not going to fall in its entirety if there will be peace talks recognizing situation on the ground, but I bet you haven’t seen the map of Europe if you think Ukraine is standing between Russia and NATO. If Russia wanted to attack, there’s much more convenient and more strategically important route via Belarus (Russian ally) and Baltics. So no, Ukraine is not fighting for us. They fight for a certain vision of ethnic state that was not even shared by majority of its population before 2014. It’s not bad, they have the right and they deserve it, but it’s a very different narrative. Yes, a few people on annexed regions are going to suffer, that will be mostly active political opposition. How many of them will die? You can check statistics on Russian political prisoners. If the peace treaty is signed, there will be no more cannon fodder on either side. Prisoners? Yes. Not a lot.

lpcvoid 2y ago

>3. EU is nowhere close in military integration and economic flexibility to match the threat, even with that declaration. For example I cannot imagine IG Metall agreeing to work in three shifts to boost production of shells or drones. Why not? They already did in the past for car production, for example. If liberty is on the line, and the russian threat becomes tangible to the common people, then there will be more than enough factory workers willing to work overtime, I very much think so.

ivan_gammel 2y ago
Well, yes, if Russian armies will be approaching Oder, they will do it. I don’t feel the vibes of urgency of situation among Germans right now. On the contrary, a lot of hesitation. They will wake up when it’s too late.

rasz 2y ago

>partitioning of Ukraine now will save lives Will it? russia will kill and torture even more of war prisoners, and conscript remaining Ukrainian children to fight in Moldova/Baltics/Poland in 5 years https://edition.cnn.com/2024/03/14/europe/ukrainian-teenagers-russian-soldiers-cmd-intl/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2024/03/14/europe/ukrainian-teenager...