3 ms·

So biological denialism is a morally superior position to hold, then? Democratic leaders can't ever seem to acknowledge biological differences between the sexes

So biological denialism is a morally superior position to hold, then? Democratic leaders can't ever seem to acknowledge biological differences between the sexes, certainly not with regards to competitive advantages. As for it being "core policy", I'd need to a see a citation, otherwise it's conjecture. The 2024 GOP platform [1] doesn't mention climate change, global warming, IPCC, et al. once, whereas the DNC's platform [2] discusses it at length. [1] https://ballotpedia.org/The_Republican_Party_Platform,_2024 https://ballotpedia.org/The_Republican_Party_Platform,_2024 [2] https://democrats.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/FINAL-MASTER-PLATFORM.pdf https://democrats.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/FINAL-MASTE...

pfdietz 2y ago
> biological denialism What is this? I would have thought that the idea that some people who are outwardly one sex have brain wiring for the other sex is quite plausible. Development is very messy.
- exoverito 2y ago
  The significant increase in non-binary gender identity and rapid onset gender dysphoria suggests there's a cultural factor at work. A 2021 systematic review found mixed results for transgender brain structures mirroring their self-identified sex, with most neuroanatomical measures mapping to their birth sex. Though I agree with you that development is messy. We should be much more concerned about exposing children to endocrine disruptors, micro-plastics, and bizarre social dogmas.
  - pfdietz 2y ago
    > a cultural factor at work For example, recognition of the existence of the syndrome and reduction in social stigma. Kind of like how the rate of homosexuality increases when you stop subjecting them to vivisection.
    - the_why_of_y 2y ago
      For historical precendent, rate of people in US identifying as left-handed went from 4% in 1900 to 12% in 1950, and remained constant since then. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FChMzOFVkAAKsgp?format=jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FChMzOFVkAAKsgp?format=jpg
      - pfdietz 2y ago
        Nice example.
      - Manuel_D 2y ago
        So a 3x increase over 50 years for left-handedness. By comparison there's been a 40-50x increase in gender clinic patients in just 11 years from ~100 patients in 2011 to 5000 patients in 2022: https://segm.org/images/280UK_22.svg https://segm.org/images/280UK_22.svg
        the_why_of_y 2y ago
        I'm arguing that there's a qualitative analogy of an increase in rates eventually leading to a plateau, and you're turning it into a quantitative argument? The point here is that if there's discrimination against certain characteristics, there will be individuals that will deny part of their identity to the outside world.
        Manuel_D 2y ago
        But discrimination against trans individuals has by most measures increased. Bathroom bills, many states categorized gender medicine in minors as child abuse, etc. Polls asking people of they agree that gender can be changed has decreased over time: https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2022/06/28/americans-complex-views-on-gender-identity-and-transgender-issues/psdt_06-28-22_gender_identity_0_0-png/ https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2022/06/28/america... So whatever is causing trans identification to increase ~250x faster than left-handedness is happening despite increasing discrimination against trans individuals.
  - seltzered_ 2y ago
    Where is your worldview on ROGD coming from? It's been a rather contentious topic, and sciam has even written about some of the issues: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/evidence-undermines-rapid-onset-gender-dysphoria-claims/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/evidence-undermin... ( https://archive.ph/N1nAR https://archive.ph/N1nAR ) "The American Psychological Association and 61 other health care providers’ organizations signed a letter in 2021 denouncing the validity of rapid-onset gender dysphoria (ROGD) as a clinical diagnosis" -> https://www.caaps.co/rogd-statement https://www.caaps.co/rogd-statement
- blueflow 2y ago
  I do not believe a being could tell if it has a male or female wired brain without relying on some fictitious tropes (or call it stereotypes) about manliness or femininity. This is a constructivistic/social phenomenon.
  - pfdietz 2y ago
    Well there's two questions. One is whether it's possible for "inner" sex and "outer" sex to be in conflict. There's no reason to think this is impossible. The other is whether a person suffering from this could tell something was wrong. They couldn't diagnose the problem in detail, but shouldn't they be able to tell, at some level, that something isn't right? Denying the latter just sounds like gaslighting to me.
    - blueflow 2y ago
      You misunderstood. I said "without relying on some fictitious tropes". If you have these tropes internalized (which is a common thing apparently) the conflict between the idealized gender roles and physical reality is bound to happen.
- jandrewrogers 2y ago
  I don't think I've ever seen anyone deny the plausibility of the brain being wired differently than the body. What I believe the poster is referring to, and which I've seen in the media many times, is denial that physiological sex-linked characteristics are fully expressed even if doesn't match the one the brain is wired for. If brain wiring can mismatch physiology, it demonstrably is not determinative of the biology the brain is attached to in any meaningful way. I understand the motivation for this denialism: most social institutions that segregate by sex are motivated by the practical effects of physiological sex-linked characteristics, brain wiring isn't a relevant criterion for determining "sex" for these purposes. It is currently impossible for the physiology to match the brain wiring in such case as a matter of science. Since the social institutions around sex segregation are widely viewed to exist for good reason, it motivates denial that physiological sex-linked characteristics actually exist for people that want to be segregated according to their brain-wiring sex.
- Manuel_D 2y ago
  It is very common for left-leaning figures in the US to deny that trans women and girls possess any advantage over cis females in sports. In reality trans women still possess greater bone density, higher average height, higher red blood cell concentrations, higher VO2 max, more fast-twitch muscle fiber and more.
  - tmp4 2y ago
    [flagged]

pfdietz 2y ago

> biological denialism What is this? I would have thought that the idea that some people who are outwardly one sex have brain wiring for the other sex is quite plausible. Development is very messy.

exoverito 2y ago
The significant increase in non-binary gender identity and rapid onset gender dysphoria suggests there's a cultural factor at work. A 2021 systematic review found mixed results for transgender brain structures mirroring their self-identified sex, with most neuroanatomical measures mapping to their birth sex. Though I agree with you that development is messy. We should be much more concerned about exposing children to endocrine disruptors, micro-plastics, and bizarre social dogmas.
- pfdietz 2y ago
  > a cultural factor at work For example, recognition of the existence of the syndrome and reduction in social stigma. Kind of like how the rate of homosexuality increases when you stop subjecting them to vivisection.
  - the_why_of_y 2y ago
    For historical precendent, rate of people in US identifying as left-handed went from 4% in 1900 to 12% in 1950, and remained constant since then. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FChMzOFVkAAKsgp?format=jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FChMzOFVkAAKsgp?format=jpg
    - pfdietz 2y ago
      Nice example.
    - Manuel_D 2y ago
      So a 3x increase over 50 years for left-handedness. By comparison there's been a 40-50x increase in gender clinic patients in just 11 years from ~100 patients in 2011 to 5000 patients in 2022: https://segm.org/images/280UK_22.svg https://segm.org/images/280UK_22.svg
      - the_why_of_y 2y ago
        I'm arguing that there's a qualitative analogy of an increase in rates eventually leading to a plateau, and you're turning it into a quantitative argument? The point here is that if there's discrimination against certain characteristics, there will be individuals that will deny part of their identity to the outside world.
        Manuel_D 2y ago
        But discrimination against trans individuals has by most measures increased. Bathroom bills, many states categorized gender medicine in minors as child abuse, etc. Polls asking people of they agree that gender can be changed has decreased over time: https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2022/06/28/americans-complex-views-on-gender-identity-and-transgender-issues/psdt_06-28-22_gender_identity_0_0-png/ https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2022/06/28/america... So whatever is causing trans identification to increase ~250x faster than left-handedness is happening despite increasing discrimination against trans individuals.
- seltzered_ 2y ago
  Where is your worldview on ROGD coming from? It's been a rather contentious topic, and sciam has even written about some of the issues: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/evidence-undermines-rapid-onset-gender-dysphoria-claims/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/evidence-undermin... ( https://archive.ph/N1nAR https://archive.ph/N1nAR ) "The American Psychological Association and 61 other health care providers’ organizations signed a letter in 2021 denouncing the validity of rapid-onset gender dysphoria (ROGD) as a clinical diagnosis" -> https://www.caaps.co/rogd-statement https://www.caaps.co/rogd-statement
blueflow 2y ago
I do not believe a being could tell if it has a male or female wired brain without relying on some fictitious tropes (or call it stereotypes) about manliness or femininity. This is a constructivistic/social phenomenon.
- pfdietz 2y ago
  Well there's two questions. One is whether it's possible for "inner" sex and "outer" sex to be in conflict. There's no reason to think this is impossible. The other is whether a person suffering from this could tell something was wrong. They couldn't diagnose the problem in detail, but shouldn't they be able to tell, at some level, that something isn't right? Denying the latter just sounds like gaslighting to me.
  - blueflow 2y ago
    You misunderstood. I said "without relying on some fictitious tropes". If you have these tropes internalized (which is a common thing apparently) the conflict between the idealized gender roles and physical reality is bound to happen.
jandrewrogers 2y ago
I don't think I've ever seen anyone deny the plausibility of the brain being wired differently than the body. What I believe the poster is referring to, and which I've seen in the media many times, is denial that physiological sex-linked characteristics are fully expressed even if doesn't match the one the brain is wired for. If brain wiring can mismatch physiology, it demonstrably is not determinative of the biology the brain is attached to in any meaningful way. I understand the motivation for this denialism: most social institutions that segregate by sex are motivated by the practical effects of physiological sex-linked characteristics, brain wiring isn't a relevant criterion for determining "sex" for these purposes. It is currently impossible for the physiology to match the brain wiring in such case as a matter of science. Since the social institutions around sex segregation are widely viewed to exist for good reason, it motivates denial that physiological sex-linked characteristics actually exist for people that want to be segregated according to their brain-wiring sex.
Manuel_D 2y ago
It is very common for left-leaning figures in the US to deny that trans women and girls possess any advantage over cis females in sports. In reality trans women still possess greater bone density, higher average height, higher red blood cell concentrations, higher VO2 max, more fast-twitch muscle fiber and more.
- tmp4 2y ago
  [flagged]