4 ms·

If buying isn't owning, piracy isn't stealing, so...

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> If buying isn't owning, piracy isn't stealing, so... This is a bad argument for piracy. (There are good ones.) Plenty of things that can't be bought and sold without restriction can be stolen.
- Retric 2y ago
  Such as?
  - cess11 2y ago
    Plutonium.
    - Retric 2y ago
      Plutonium does get sold, look up certified reference materials.
      - cess11 2y ago
        "without restriction"
        Retric 2y ago
        The seller isn’t restricting you on what you can do with your 0.1 gram sample of plutonium.
  - pydry 2y ago
    Organs
    - Retric 2y ago
      There’s a market for cadavers. https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-bodies-brokers/ https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-bodi...
      - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        And it's tightly regulated.
        Retric 2y ago
        So are cars, it’s still a sale and actual ownership.
        JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > it’s still a sale and actual ownership What makes it actual versus pretend ownership? Remember, ownership is a social construct.
        EMIRELADERO 2y ago
        > Remember, ownership is a social construct. But the argument about you not really "owning" stuff even when the button says "buy" is a legal one.
        JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > the argument about you not really "owning" stuff even when the button says "buy" is a legal one Ownership is a stack of rights. It's a social construct--you can't lab test for ownership. It's meaningless to say what "really" owning means without specifying which of those rights you view to be essential in this situation.
        Retric 2y ago
        Finality. Does the seller or creator having a say in what you do with something after the transaction? If so it’s not a sale. If the dealership can still repossess the car you haven’t bought it yet. New house requires being an HOA member? Not a sale.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > Such as? Tickets to a live performance. Health information. Public benefits. Tax refunds. Rental cars.
    - Retric 2y ago
      You just listed things that are regularly resold.
      - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > You just listed things that are regularly resold Yes? I said "things that can't be bought and sold without restriction." Are you saying it's not pirating if there's a resellable DVD available?
        Retric 2y ago
        Stealing a physical DVD has meaning. Making a copy of a purely intangible set of data doesn’t deprive someone of that data.
        JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > Making a copy of a purely intangible set of data doesn’t deprive someone of that data You’re making an argument on the non-rivalry of digital content. This is one of the good arguments I referenced. Digital content is currently a club good, like broadcast television. (Excludable.) You’re arguing for treating it like a public good, like a park. (Not excludable.) Ownership being a social construct makes statements like stealing X has meaning somewhat useless, particularly when it comes to rules.
        Retric 2y ago
        Marriage is a social construct, but that doesn’t make the word meaningless. Buying a fork isn’t a marriage.
- exe34 2y ago
  he didn't say stealing isn't piracy, in which case your point would stand - he says piracy isn't stealing. piracy could be a lot of things, but stealing isn't one of them.
- WastedCucumber 2y ago
  It's not only about restictions on buying and selling, it's also about restictions on using (where, for how long, can it be inherited) which are dictated by the vendor.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > it's also about restictions on using (where, for how long, can it be inherited) which are dictated by the vendor Sure. Again, this is true for a wide variety of things. Many of which we commonly consider to be stealable.
    - WastedCucumber 2y ago
      Such as?
  - thechao 2y ago
    I've always thought there was a clever hack to get out of deed restrictions through the use of adverse possession.
    - howard941 2y ago
      Won't work, recorded deed restrictions run with the land.
squarefoot 2y ago
When someone tells me that downloading a song or a movie is like stealing, I usually encourage them to download a new car.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > When someone tells me that downloading a song or a movie is like stealing, I usually encourage them to download a new car Now do social security benefits. Or hell, money in a bank account.
  - xyproto 2y ago
    Information being free and the ability to change information are two different things.
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > Information being free and the ability to change information are two different things A bank CEO adding zeroes to their own account doesn't deprive any specific person of anything. We still consider it stealing because of its systemic effects.
      - xyproto 2y ago
        That both changes information and has measurable systemic effects. If a 12 year old kid with no income copies a floppy disk or two with Monkey Island, no money were lost. He might even spend more money on LucasArt products as an adult.
6SixTy 2y ago
For creative works, there's always a license behind it post the invention of copyright. It wasn't as obvious in the past now that DRM and digital/streaming only has given studios/publishers/etc the ability to cancel your access at their discretion. Though complicating matters is that there's increasingly nothing worth spending money on in the first place anymore.
- HWR_14 2y ago
  Not true. If you buy a book, it is yours. You can literally do anything you want with it. They cannot reclaim it. You cannot create a copy of the book, but that has nothing to do with owning an individual book.
- potsandpans 2y ago
  Your point is incoherent.Could you restate? Are you suggesting that we never had ownership, it just wasn't obvious? If so, please cite your sources.
- theandrewbailey 2y ago
  > It wasn't as obvious in the past now that DRM and digital/streaming only has given studios/publishers/etc the ability to cancel your access at their discretion. And that right there is the crux of the argument. Cancelling access to physical media was never a thing, because you "bought" it. Digital media shouldn't be any different. If I buy a file and someday it doesn't work because of something you did, you're responsible for it, but corporations have been able to get away with no responsibility. Example: https://www.forbes.com/sites/paultassi/2023/12/02/playstation-is-deleting-tv-shows-players-paid-for-thanks-to-warner-bros/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/paultassi/2023/12/02/playstatio...

> If buying isn't owning, piracy isn't stealing, so... This is a bad argument for piracy. (There are good ones.) Plenty of things that can't be bought and sold without restriction can be stolen.

Retric 2y ago
Such as?
- cess11 2y ago
  Plutonium.
  - Retric 2y ago
    Plutonium does get sold, look up certified reference materials.
    - cess11 2y ago
      "without restriction"
      - Retric 2y ago
        The seller isn’t restricting you on what you can do with your 0.1 gram sample of plutonium.
- pydry 2y ago
  Organs
  - Retric 2y ago
    There’s a market for cadavers. https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-bodies-brokers/ https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-bodi...
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      And it's tightly regulated.
      - Retric 2y ago
        So are cars, it’s still a sale and actual ownership.
        JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > it’s still a sale and actual ownership What makes it actual versus pretend ownership? Remember, ownership is a social construct.
        EMIRELADERO 2y ago
        > Remember, ownership is a social construct. But the argument about you not really "owning" stuff even when the button says "buy" is a legal one.
        JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > the argument about you not really "owning" stuff even when the button says "buy" is a legal one Ownership is a stack of rights. It's a social construct--you can't lab test for ownership. It's meaningless to say what "really" owning means without specifying which of those rights you view to be essential in this situation.
        Retric 2y ago
        Finality. Does the seller or creator having a say in what you do with something after the transaction? If so it’s not a sale. If the dealership can still repossess the car you haven’t bought it yet. New house requires being an HOA member? Not a sale.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > Such as? Tickets to a live performance. Health information. Public benefits. Tax refunds. Rental cars.
  - Retric 2y ago
    You just listed things that are regularly resold.
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > You just listed things that are regularly resold Yes? I said "things that can't be bought and sold without restriction." Are you saying it's not pirating if there's a resellable DVD available?
      - Retric 2y ago
        Stealing a physical DVD has meaning. Making a copy of a purely intangible set of data doesn’t deprive someone of that data.
        JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > Making a copy of a purely intangible set of data doesn’t deprive someone of that data You’re making an argument on the non-rivalry of digital content. This is one of the good arguments I referenced. Digital content is currently a club good, like broadcast television. (Excludable.) You’re arguing for treating it like a public good, like a park. (Not excludable.) Ownership being a social construct makes statements like stealing X has meaning somewhat useless, particularly when it comes to rules.
        Retric 2y ago
        Marriage is a social construct, but that doesn’t make the word meaningless. Buying a fork isn’t a marriage.
exe34 2y ago
he didn't say stealing isn't piracy, in which case your point would stand - he says piracy isn't stealing. piracy could be a lot of things, but stealing isn't one of them.
WastedCucumber 2y ago
It's not only about restictions on buying and selling, it's also about restictions on using (where, for how long, can it be inherited) which are dictated by the vendor.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > it's also about restictions on using (where, for how long, can it be inherited) which are dictated by the vendor Sure. Again, this is true for a wide variety of things. Many of which we commonly consider to be stealable.
  - WastedCucumber 2y ago
    Such as?
- thechao 2y ago
  I've always thought there was a clever hack to get out of deed restrictions through the use of adverse possession.
  - howard941 2y ago
    Won't work, recorded deed restrictions run with the land.

squarefoot 2y ago

When someone tells me that downloading a song or a movie is like stealing, I usually encourage them to download a new car.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> When someone tells me that downloading a song or a movie is like stealing, I usually encourage them to download a new car Now do social security benefits. Or hell, money in a bank account.
- xyproto 2y ago
  Information being free and the ability to change information are two different things.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > Information being free and the ability to change information are two different things A bank CEO adding zeroes to their own account doesn't deprive any specific person of anything. We still consider it stealing because of its systemic effects.
    - xyproto 2y ago
      That both changes information and has measurable systemic effects. If a 12 year old kid with no income copies a floppy disk or two with Monkey Island, no money were lost. He might even spend more money on LucasArt products as an adult.

6SixTy 2y ago

For creative works, there's always a license behind it post the invention of copyright. It wasn't as obvious in the past now that DRM and digital/streaming only has given studios/publishers/etc the ability to cancel your access at their discretion. Though complicating matters is that there's increasingly nothing worth spending money on in the first place anymore.

HWR_14 2y ago
Not true. If you buy a book, it is yours. You can literally do anything you want with it. They cannot reclaim it. You cannot create a copy of the book, but that has nothing to do with owning an individual book.
potsandpans 2y ago
Your point is incoherent.Could you restate? Are you suggesting that we never had ownership, it just wasn't obvious? If so, please cite your sources.
theandrewbailey 2y ago
> It wasn't as obvious in the past now that DRM and digital/streaming only has given studios/publishers/etc the ability to cancel your access at their discretion. And that right there is the crux of the argument. Cancelling access to physical media was never a thing, because you "bought" it. Digital media shouldn't be any different. If I buy a file and someday it doesn't work because of something you did, you're responsible for it, but corporations have been able to get away with no responsibility. Example: https://www.forbes.com/sites/paultassi/2023/12/02/playstation-is-deleting-tv-shows-players-paid-for-thanks-to-warner-bros/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/paultassi/2023/12/02/playstatio...