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Half of young Norwegians say online piracy is an acceptable way to save money
- theandrewbailey 2y agoIf buying isn't owning, piracy isn't stealing, so...
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago> If buying isn't owning, piracy isn't stealing, so... This is a bad argument for piracy. (There are good ones.) Plenty of things that can't be bought and sold without restriction can be stolen.
- Retric 2y agoSuch as?
- cess11 2y agoPlutonium.
- pydry 2y agoOrgans
- Retric 2y agoThere’s a market for cadavers. https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-bodies-brokers/ https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-bodi...
- JumpCrisscross 2y agoAnd it's tightly regulated.
- Retric 2y agoSo are cars, it’s still a sale and actual ownership.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago> it’s still a sale and actual ownership What makes it actual versus pretend ownership? Remember, ownership is a social construct.
- EMIRELADERO 2y ago> Remember, ownership is a social construct. But the argument about you not really "owning" stuff even when the button says "buy" is a legal one.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago> the argument about you not really "owning" stuff even when the button says "buy" is a legal one Ownership is a stack of rights. It's a social construct--you can't lab test for ownership. It's meaningless to say what "really" owning means without specifying which of those rights you view to be essential in this situation.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago> Such as? Tickets to a live performance. Health information. Public benefits. Tax refunds. Rental cars.
- Retric 2y agoYou just listed things that are regularly resold.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago> You just listed things that are regularly resold Yes? I said "things that can't be bought and sold without restriction." Are you saying it's not pirating if there's a resellable DVD available?
- Retric 2y agoStealing a physical DVD has meaning. Making a copy of a purely intangible set of data doesn’t deprive someone of that data.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago> Making a copy of a purely intangible set of data doesn’t deprive someone of that data You’re making an argument on the non-rivalry of digital content. This is one of the good arguments I referenced. Digital content is currently a club good, like broadcast television. (Excludable.) You’re arguing for treating it like a public good, like a park. (Not excludable.) Ownership being a social construct makes statements like stealing X has meaning somewhat useless, particularly when it comes to rules.
- Retric 2y agoMarriage is a social construct, but that doesn’t make the word meaningless. Buying a fork isn’t a marriage.
- exe34 2y agohe didn't say stealing isn't piracy, in which case your point would stand - he says piracy isn't stealing. piracy could be a lot of things, but stealing isn't one of them.
- WastedCucumber 2y agoIt's not only about restictions on buying and selling, it's also about restictions on using (where, for how long, can it be inherited) which are dictated by the vendor.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago> it's also about restictions on using (where, for how long, can it be inherited) which are dictated by the vendor Sure. Again, this is true for a wide variety of things. Many of which we commonly consider to be stealable.
- WastedCucumber 2y agoSuch as?
- thechao 2y agoI've always thought there was a clever hack to get out of deed restrictions through the use of adverse possession.
- howard941 2y agoWon't work, recorded deed restrictions run with the land.
- squarefoot 2y agoWhen someone tells me that downloading a song or a movie is like stealing, I usually encourage them to download a new car.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago> When someone tells me that downloading a song or a movie is like stealing, I usually encourage them to download a new car Now do social security benefits. Or hell, money in a bank account.
- xyproto 2y agoInformation being free and the ability to change information are two different things.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago> Information being free and the ability to change information are two different things A bank CEO adding zeroes to their own account doesn't deprive any specific person of anything. We still consider it stealing because of its systemic effects.
- xyproto 2y agoThat both changes information and has measurable systemic effects. If a 12 year old kid with no income copies a floppy disk or two with Monkey Island, no money were lost. He might even spend more money on LucasArt products as an adult.
- 6SixTy 2y agoFor creative works, there's always a license behind it post the invention of copyright. It wasn't as obvious in the past now that DRM and digital/streaming only has given studios/publishers/etc the ability to cancel your access at their discretion. Though complicating matters is that there's increasingly nothing worth spending money on in the first place anymore.
- HWR_14 2y agoNot true. If you buy a book, it is yours. You can literally do anything you want with it. They cannot reclaim it. You cannot create a copy of the book, but that has nothing to do with owning an individual book.
- potsandpans 2y agoYour point is incoherent.Could you restate? Are you suggesting that we never had ownership, it just wasn't obvious? If so, please cite your sources.
- theandrewbailey 2y ago> It wasn't as obvious in the past now that DRM and digital/streaming only has given studios/publishers/etc the ability to cancel your access at their discretion. And that right there is the crux of the argument. Cancelling access to physical media was never a thing, because you "bought" it. Digital media shouldn't be any different. If I buy a file and someday it doesn't work because of something you did, you're responsible for it, but corporations have been able to get away with no responsibility. Example: https://www.forbes.com/sites/paultassi/2023/12/02/playstation-is-deleting-tv-shows-players-paid-for-thanks-to-warner-bros/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/paultassi/2023/12/02/playstatio...
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- fsflover 2y agoAnd piracy isn't as harmful as the corporations want you to think: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15305476 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15305476
- johnnyanmac 2y agocorporation, no. the small people, yes. You can take a lot of losses when you have a billion dollars in the bank. Not so much when you got maybe 1000 (on a good day).
- codr7 2y agoWarms my heart, living in Norway atm.
- petertodd 2y agoIf I could actually buy movies and TV shows for download I would; I buy all my music as sites like bleep.com allow you to easily buy mp3s, probably thousands of dollars over the years. I've tried buying shows a handful of times before. But I travel a lot and they're geolocked - WTF can't I watch my fully paid for episodes of Rick and Morty on youtube wherever I happen to be? Since studios have made purchasing impossible, I don't, and I don't give them any money via streaming services either. There is one exception I can think of: https://www.teamstarkid.com/ https://www.teamstarkid.com/ They've made their (awesome!) musicals available for purchase, with a true video download. So they've gotten a well-deserved $50 from me.
- loufe 2y agoI really enjoy Graphic Audio's audiobooks (full voice cast, music, SFX, high quality production). Their titles can all be bought outright, which is great as I spend a lot of time on a plane or away from a cell signal or internet capable of streaming even audio. It's a great approach, but I'm sure there are not a ton of folks who end up buying episodes, it's an expensive way to approach media, certainly.
- loremm 2y agoI agree, they are both good and expensive. Audiobooks are in general, which is unfortunate although makes sense considering you need, in this case, so many people producing 10-20 hours of content Audiobooks.com can be much cheaper, click through from Google shopping
- mazambazz 2y agoI believe if businesses want to stop piracy, they need to start making superior products and platforms. If we put away cost completely for a service, allowing it to be any exorbitant amount, the final question is: Is this a better experience than I could have gotten for free? It makes zero economical sense why you would pay for an inferior experience, such as being geo-locked. Netflix apparently throttles your bitrate/resolution if you're not watching from a smart TV. Sony can revoke at will media that you "bought". Steam is a great example of what to do. Could I have pirated all my games? Absolutely, but having them on Steam--crucially--makes life easier. I get automatic updates, social integration, achievements, steam cloud saves, remote play, centralized screenshots, easy linux support via proton, etc. I have no interest in having to buying something that might want me to pay extra premium on top just for a 4K version, or a streaming service that cycles films in and out that leaves me unable to watch a great title I saw 2 years ago. The biggest sin of all is not letting you download titles. F** me I guess if I want to download & watch a movie offline while sitting in transit. F** me if I want to download a title on WiFi to watch later when I'm out and about as to not use cellular data.
- ramon156 2y agoI never understood why it's all collected under the term piracy. Do we just classify illegally acquiring as piracy?
- johnnyanmac 2y agoillegally acquiring? Yes, technically. Otherwise it wouldn't be illegal.
- Workaccount2 2y agoWatching people square this mentality with training LLM's on art has been fascinating, and really highlights that people are by and large just in it for themselves.
- yieldcrv 2y agoGenAI content isn’t afforded copyright protection so that feels like a coincidental good tradeoff I’ve made money from genAI content but i don’t care if someone copied it, it’s a risk I took, they don’t have the network and community I do which is the value.
- stavros 2y agoWhy would it be hard to square the mentality of "pirating art to watch is acceptable" with the mentality of "pirating art to train LLMs on is acceptable"?
- CaptainFever 2y agoIt depends. If your premise for "pirating art to watch is acceptable" is "information should be free to be replicated and reused", then it is also obvious that "pirating art to train LLMs on is acceptable". What premise that can infer "pirating art to watch is acceptable" can also simultaneously infer "pirating art to train LLMs on is not acceptable"? "Information should be free to be replicated and reused as long as you're not making a profit"? This would rule out OpenAI, but Stable Diffusion would be acceptable (it's a true non-profit). What other premises could there be? "One should be able to watch all information, but not replicate it"? But you can't pirate without replicating the information. "You shouldn't repost stuff without consent"? But this rules out piracy. "Information should be free to be replicated and reused as long as it comes from a big corporation"? But piracy from indie games is a thing, too. And how do you define "big"? Also, is training stuff solely on Getty, Shutterstock etc okay, then? What about books3? "But even though publishers own the rights to the book, individual authors wrote it." But the same is true for piracy from big corporations. People worked on it. This is why it's so hard to square it, because I cannot see any rational moral foundation that simultaneously condones piracy (possibly indie games too) while condemning Stable Diffusion and the hobbyist AI ecosystem. The only other explanation is that it is irrational, or as the GP put it, "that people are by and large just in it for themselves". Piracy for me but not for thee.
- mikeocool 2y agoI used to download torrents of tv shows less because it was cheap, and more because it was way more convenient than watching them through legal means — I could download them and then watch them when/wherever I wanted. For me, the content providers have now basically solved for that with streaming services, I find that way more convenient than dealing with torrents. It’s definitely not cheap, I’m paying for at least five streaming services right now, but it’s fast and easy and for me that’s worth it.
- lillecarl 2y agoTorrents UX isn't uTorrent anymore, there are Netflix like UX solutions to piracy 2024. Feel free to pay, I'm happy to freeload off faceless megacorps profit margins. I pay for YouTube Premium and Spotify premium, I'd probably pay for Netflix if I didn't need D+, Showtime, Viaplay etc... To access all I want to watch.
- dotcoma 2y agoWhat’s wrong with the other half ?
- baud147258 2y agoother just think pirating is an acceptable way to stick it to the Man.
- jowea 2y agoI'm surprised it's not higher. Are the results unusual for an Western country?
- boomboomsubban 2y agoSaying "piracy supports organized crime" as a scare tactic is a new one to me, and doesn't seem like a very effective campaign. What would be their motivation, shitty ad revenue?
- johnnyanmac 2y agowell, the bleeding heart "you make indies unable to operate" didn't work. So you gotta move to fear, no matter how bad the argument. Everyone responds to fear when done right.
- telgareith 2y agoPrivate trackers might he considered organized crime.
- some_random 2y agoI was guessing stuff like counterfeit DVDs, which also doesn't really have much to do with torrenting
- kibwen 2y agoKnow what supports organized crime? The copyright-supported media titans that closed ranks to cover up the career-spanning crimes of all the Weinsteins, Cosbys, Diddys, and Saviles of the world.
- thih9 2y agoInterestingly, Diddy shares a cell (dormitory-style room) with SBF; small world. > [Diddy] was arrested and indicted in the Southern District of New York in September 2024 on charges of racketeering, sex trafficking by force, and transportation for purposes of prostitution. He is awaiting trial in federal custody at the Metropolitan Detention Center in Brooklyn. His cellmate is Sam Bankman-Fried, who is serving a 25-year sentence. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sean_Combs https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sean_Combs
- mandmandam 2y ago
- fldskfjdslkfj 2y agoVikings gonna viking.
- lofaszvanitt 2y agoGet together with your friends and watch stuff.
- johnnyanmac 2y agoFriends, in this economy? Surely you jest. There was a brief post COVID period where we hung out. It got a lot harder to contact them when almost all of us got laid off in different companies. I still do reach out (I was laid off too. I think I was the first in my circle), but it quickly became COVID hard again.
- akomtu 2y agoImagine if someone bought a royal permission to "own" the image of Mt. Everest, hired a bunch of gangsters and tried to chase and beat up everyone who dared to look at the mountain without paying a fee? That's the modern copyright holders, the wannabe aristocracy of the digital world.
- MattPalmer1086 2y agoImagine if someone built a huge, impressive thing, and a whole load of people tried to avoid paying to see it and claim they had some moral right to do so.
- johnnyanmac 2y agoThe alternative is that "not playing media you can't buy" is also an acceptable way to save money. There's so much free media out there these days that you could spend your life ethically consuming media without ever spending a dime. I'm no snitch, so do what you need to do. But I feel this mentality of it being "acceptable" only further devalues art. And the endgoal isn't some utopia where we all make art for free. Just look at the mobile industry for this race to the bottom. Tons of "free" mobile games, after all..
- downrightmike 2y agoNo wage. Only buy!
- mschuster91 2y agoSurprise, that's what you get for ... half a dozen worth of streaming services these days with none sharing their catalogue? It's not that hard. Spotify and Apple Music both have all the music one can ever want, why the fuck didn't the movie/TV industry consolidate on Netflix... greedy morons.
- matsemann 2y agoAs a Norwegian just above 30, I guess I'm a bit outside. But my impression is that most people don't pirate movies or music to the same extent we did when I was younger. What's being pirated now is often live sports. Watching Premier League costs about $75 a month. Why? Do the multi-millionaire soccer players really need that much? What happens with the sport when a whole generation of new fans can't afford to watch? I also wanted to watch the Alpine World Cup today, but due to weird licensing issues with winter sports from Austria it's not on any channel I can buy.
- scotty79 2y ago> Do the multi-millionaire soccer players really need that much? I think that's how they got their millions.
- talkingtab 2y agoCorporations make decision that are predatory and then complain when people avoid them. For example, there has been much talk about "bad" passengers on airplanes. But there is little discussion about the increasingly inhumane people must endure to fly. Somehow the corporations expect people to endure over crowding, exasperating loading conditions, angry and surly "attendants", delays, bad food and more. Then when some passenger loses it, the problem is never the conditions, it is the passenger. The same is true for digital content. Amazon "sells" you movies (as do others like Apple), but do you "own" the movie? No. Amazon can just tell you it is no longer available. You cannot "sell" the movie you "bought" to some other person. But you bought it right? People in general are of good will. But if you treat them as prey at some point they recognize these corporations are simply predators. In my opinion there is a very strong case to be made that people who decide not to be victims are of better character than these predatory corporations. [edit: removed the line "May their travels ever be delayed." because it was not clear I meant predatory corporations]
- BLKNSLVR 2y agoThere's a 'concentration' (of people / power) effect by the creation of a business or company or corporation that makes said entity more appealing to cater to by government than individuals; centralisation is more efficient than decentralisation. There's also the fact that, historically at least, business entities were created to serve a public need, and therefore these business entities should be encouraged to grow their service to greater satisfy the need. Government still acts as if this is the case despite that many business entities are the grotesque offspring of that old idea, having evolved through perverse incentives into todays unrecognisable mutants of 'responsibility to shareholders' that are hideous to look upon.
- reverendjames 2y agoI live in Asia. Passengers are treated with respect, I've never seen a 'surely' employee, nor do I remember seeing a misbehaving passenger, other than a drunk Russian guy who had shit himself by 9am while checking in. His wife didn't look happy.
- meiraleal 2y ago
- blackeyeblitzar 2y agoI am not sure. I think piracy does deprive others of revenue. The only reason it feels acceptable is because it concerns information instead of something physical. The gray area for me is how ownership isn’t real even when you legally purchase something. For example, when Amazon deleted copies of digital books from customers’ Kindles.
- metalman 2y agodigital copys can not be considered real property,and therefor able to be "stolen" with legal repercusions, until and only when digital copys of music can be bought,sold,resold,traded,and,returned, and insured against loss, and of course reposesed in the case of theft.